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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 13, 2014 - 10:45pm PT
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in quantum mechanics energy is quantized
the quanta of the electromagnetic field are photons, they are particles
for the strong interaction as described by the standard model, the quantum chromodynamic fields are the gluons
for the weak interaction, which is also described as a field, they are the W and the Z bosons
eventually for the gravitational field it will be the graviton
the Higgs field that fills all of space, the recently discovered Higgs boson
all of these fields are describable as particles...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 13, 2014 - 11:35pm PT
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Thank God for patience.
i'm trying to comprehend all that.
i envisioned fields as being waves.
eventually for the gravitational field it will be the graviton
So where would gravitons originate from? And where do they go after the apple hits the ground?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 14, 2014 - 09:45am PT
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fields are created by source which also annihilate them
the source of the gravitation field is any sort of energy... mass is a sort of energy, but so is the momentum
in General Relativity we talk about the "Energy-momentum stress tensor" as the "source" of the gravitational field....
the complications with gravity is that the graviton can interact with other gravitons, gravitational energy has to be included in the "stress tensor."
While this is also the case for quantumchromodynamics (QCD, in the Standard Model) the field theories have different features, features that allow for the possible solution of QCD, but keep gravity from becoming a fully quantum theory (we can't "tame the infinities").
the correct statement of Energy is a statement of invariance....
m₀²c⁴ = E² - p²c²
where we call m₀ the "rest mass" (we call it that because when the momentum, p=0, the energy is the energy the object has "at rest"). The minus sign has to do with the nature of space and time... (we say that space-time has a "Minkowski metric").
The relativistic invariant says that the "length" of the vector, (E, p₁, p₂, p₃) stays the same independent of the "intertial reference frame." (p² = p₁²+p₂²+p₃²; the subscripts 1,2,3 indicate the three spatial dimension directions).
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Sep 14, 2014 - 09:47am PT
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science is only as good as the latest laws and theories which can be turned on its head at any time.
All the while you exist in your mind unchanged.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 14, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
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all of these fields are describable as particles... (Ed)
Ed, when I play with vector fields in the plane on my computer each point hypothetically has associated with it both magnitude and direction, although I graph only a few such points. Is this what you mean? Are the particles that compose the physical fields like these points on a plane, or are you talking about something more sophisticated and more abstract? Certainly in mathematical analysis "points" and "vectors" can easily have abstract existences that one cannot envision in two or three dimensions.
As Werner would say I have "poor fund" of knowledge of physics!
;>)
Edit: OK, here is a good discussion:
Particles & Fields
A particle could be an excited state of an underlying field.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
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the fields are particles...
and the particles are fields...
you can write them either way.
This reminds me of a basic Zen truth: Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. The question is: Why do we need two names for the "same" things (or non-things).
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 14, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
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Because they have personality and you are fixed only the impersonal feature ......
Simultaneous oneness and difference
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 14, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
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form and emptiness define each other
as do birth and death
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MH2
climber
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Sep 14, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
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I recommend Hayden's (edit: make that Haydn's) The Creation. With attention to the separation of Chaos into Night and Day.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 14, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sep 15, 2014 - 05:15am PT
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I had a big breakthrough while reading Harris's Waking Up. Like most people I've had a hard time understanding the concept of no self. I tried to grasp it by thinking of how I feel like a different person when speaking a different language in a foreign culture. Still, there always felt like there was some substrata that was me
Likewise, when contemplating my unconscious mind which I've explored a lot through dream analysis and meditation, I was aware of an aspect of my mind that operated only in symbols, but was extremely clever in its own subtle and abstract way. Language so dominates the mind however, I always thought of the unconscious as a hidden, mostly subsidiary, aspect of my one mind.
Everyone following this thread long time knows that I've been fascinated with the concept of left and right brain and the different functions of the hemispheres. I was of course aware of experiments with cutting the corpus callosum, the nerves connecting the two. And there it was staring me in the face all the time.
If the two halves of the brain severed from each other act independently and in ignorance of each other, how is it possible that we have one unitary self and the answer is we don't. Our sense of self is a pasted together network of interactions. If there's any permanent consciousness in the universe it has to be a universal consciousness of which we are a part. It can not be our individual self.
This insight may seem either mystical or trivial, but for me it was a big breakthrough - neuroscience used to understand Buddhism.
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MH2
climber
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Sep 15, 2014 - 07:21am PT
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Thanks, Jan, for letting us see a little more of your perspective and where it comes from. Before understanding no self it would seem important to understand self.
We have a strong tendency to hear words and think that because there is a word for it there is a thing like it. This is true for words we encounter in those early years when we first learn about the world and language. There are chairs and doors and dogs. Other words, like love, beauty, and self refer to things we aren't so used to bumping heads with.
The two girls with partly joined brains are another good question for anyone who thinks they have nailed down the concept of 'self.'
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 15, 2014 - 07:48am PT
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Every thing complements every other thing. We see that especially with binary complements. Form and emptiness, left and right, the sweetness and harshness of life, energy and interpretation.
Meditation helps to train one in what "directly" means, but it's been said that "selflessly" dawns on a person over time. The prerequisite for selflessness is being present, particularly to one's emotions. Looking at emotions directly, they either disappear or morph into other things.
Without the "entanglement" of energy and interpretation with each other, interpretations can be seen simply as thoughts. Then what is left is pure dynamic energy. It is that raw energy that can supposedly wake a person up. Then people feel emotions "selflessly" and surf them.
In Tibet, the training for disconnecting interpretations from energy fields are charnel grounds--where body parts are strewn in fields (they can't be buried in frozen ground).
Many have said that the contemplation of death is the greatest spiritual practice there is. (Where's Locker?)
There's nothing wrong with interpretations. We can have views and opinions about anything. It's just that it's a glitch in the system when we cling to those views. Instead, we can just have fun with them, try them on, like an actor in the theatre. They are story lines.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 15, 2014 - 08:06am PT
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Mirror neurons
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 15, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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If there's any permanent consciousness in the universe it has to be a universal consciousness of which we are a part. It can not be our individual self.
The consciousness is there. Actually there are two. We are all the time connected, adding, receiving to one or the other. Every night i wash my face with ivory soap and noxema just like i watched my grandma do since i was a boy. In doing this i can hear her advice and even hear her sing. If i really need her, i go out and rake the leaves. Meditative action ive found to be the best way for me to open awareness to consciousness. It involves both left and right sides. i don't see where neuroscience was needed for this enlightenment when it was in the bible the whole time.
But good on ya either way
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 15, 2014 - 10:50am PT
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Jstan: Mirror neurons.
Another story line.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 15, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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MH@ said "Before understanding no self it would seem important to understand self.
We have a strong tendency to hear words and think that because there is a word for it there is a thing like it. This is true for words we encounter in those early years when we first learn about the world and language. There are chairs and doors and dogs. Other words, like love, beauty, and self refer to things we aren't so used to bumping heads with."
Well said; and when you sit down and decide not to move for 25 plus minutes self immediately appears in the form of internal dialog and emotions etc. because "I" doesn't typically want to sit still for 25 minutes. "I" often gets uncomfortable in this situation and starts whining or moving (rather than sit still). Try sitting perfectly still; there will be a strong temptation to move especially in the first few minutes.
Why is that? What is this "I" that doesn't like things and likes other things.
It is a wonderfully effective technique to observe the self ( ego) It is similar to when you start a run that first 10 minutes is a killer "I" doesn't like the change.
MH I like how you explain how we are basically taught from a very early stage that things are their names. Not the other way, that they are things that we gave a name to. consequently we become attached to name and form.
As many people have already said the intent of buddha was to get you to experience "no "I" not to conceptually understand it.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Sep 15, 2014 - 11:56am PT
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"in quantum mechanics energy is quantized
the quanta of the electromagnetic field are photons, they are particles
for the strong interaction as described by the standard model, the quantum chromodynamic fields are the gluons
for the weak interaction, which is also described as a field, they are the W and the Z bosons
eventually for the gravitational field it will be the graviton
the Higgs field that fills all of space, the recently discovered Higgs boson"
My understanding is as follows:
Fermions do not interact directly with each other, but only through bosons. While the Higgs particle represents a disturbance in the Higgs field, and therefore indicates its existence, it does not play a role in imparting rest mass energy to fermions - their presence within the Higgs field (which is everywhere) does that without the Higgs boson. The Higgs boson, while labeled as such, really isn't a boson by the normal definition at all.
We punched the Higgs field hard enough to produce a Higgs boson, but does anyone know what, if anything, it actually does in relation to the other components of the Standard Model? It's mass appears to be paradoxically low, although I don't fully the nature of that paradox (scale symmetry, etc).
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 15, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
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Fermions do not interact directly with each other, but only through bosons . . . (Tvash)
Wow! I am impressed. Your fund of knowledge in physics far exceeds my "poor fund". You actually sound like you know what you are talking about.
I'm going to experiment with time-dependent vector fields to determine when "ripples"appear momentarily. Sounds like fun . . . but presumptuous to think it actually relates to physics.
Turning to other matters, one evening last week as I drifted towards sleep I accidentally caught the hypnagogic state, something I practiced over forty years ago when indulging in Castenada's art of dreaming ( surfing the astral plane, lucid dreaming, wandering the halls of Jesus' mansion, etc., etc.). This time I decided on the spot to let "I" subside. And "I" slowly drifted away to my right until it was gone. What remained was a very peaceful and calm experience, almost a relief from normal personal reality. After a short time I too drifted off to sleep, but upon awakening I remembered the sensations vividly.
Thus it may be possible with very little effort to momentarily experience what Zen practitioners train to achieve on a more prolonged basis. Of course as climbers we all have left "I" behind when in the throes of athletic movement - I certainly had that experience frequently as a gymnast. But to watch as "I" gently vacates the premises is different and rewarding.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 15, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
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I tried the casteneda thing where I would try to look at my hands in my sleep to get it started , never could do it. I have a friend said he could do it, walk around and everything.
J gill, did you ever do gymnastics with abie grossfeld ? , he competed for university of illinois and was my coach in college.
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