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jstan
climber
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Jan 17, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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My browser can open this one.
Bertrand Russell on religion published in 1930.
http://www.solstice.us/russell/religionciv.html
It begins thusly:
My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. I cannot, however, deny that it has made some contributions to civilization. It helped in early days to fix the calendar, and it caused Egyptian priests to chronicle eclipses with such care that in time they became able to predict them. These two services I am prepared to acknowledge, but I do not know of any others.
The word religion is used nowadays in a very loose sense. Some people, under the influence of extreme Protestantism, employ the word to denote any serious personal convictions as to morals or the nature of the universe. This use of the word is quite unhistorical.
Religion is primarily a social phenomenon.
Churches may owe their origin to teachers with strong individual convictions, but these teachers have seldom had much influence upon the churches that they have founded, whereas churches have had enormous influence upon the communities in which they flourished.
To take the case that is of most interest to members of Western civilization: the teaching of Christ, as it appears in the Gospels, has had extraordinarily little to do with the ethics of Christians. The most important thing about Christianity, from a social and historical point of view, is not Christ but the church, and if we are to judge of Christianity as a social force we must not go to the Gospels for our material.
Christ taught that you should give your goods to the poor, that you should not fight, that you should not go to church, and that you should not punish adultery. Neither Catholics nor Protestants have shown any strong desire to follow His teaching in any of these respects. Some of the Franciscans, it is true, attempted to teach the doctrine of apostolic poverty, but the Pope condemned them, and their doctrine was declared heretical. Or, again, consider such a text as "Judge not, that ye be not judged," and ask yourself what influence such a text has had upon the Inquisition and the Ku Klux Klan.
End of excerpt.
Bertrand Russell gives us the reason, as Jan points out, why there are so many non christian followers of christ. Churches do not follow the teachings of the person founding them. To the extent this is true,............. "no christian" is a follower of christ. You can argue the people who give value to christ's actual teachings, as best we know them, are atheists, agnostics, Hindi (Mahatma Gandhi is an incredible example).
If you look at what Gandhi did and how he went about it, we, clearly, have seen christ's second coming. We shot him this time.
Why do we keep arguing this?
We (xxxxxxx believe xxxxxx) THINK christ said many things of value. And we think each of us is attempting to do good.
But it really is important that we know we are actually following the precepts we "believe" we are following.
If we do not do this, we find ourselves committing murder with eyes cast heavenward.
Oblivious.
History has long shown this to be true.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 17, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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Well guys, you're going to laugh a lot at this, but I was a big Bertrand Russell fan in high school and a confirmed atheist in those days too. In fact, I almost got kicked off the student council for carrying a copy of Why I am not a Christian around as the school principle didn't think you could be a good council member if you weren't a Christian (my home town was so lily white, I had to go to university to meet a Jewish person for the first time).
I migrated from Russell to the existentialists and then decided, either I was going to kill myself and get this meaningless depressing existence over with, or I was going to stop reading that stuff and look for something more positive. The next phase was Zen which lasted several years and then I went to the Himalayas and was introduced to Tibetan Buddhism which fit much better. Eventually, I came to have an appreciation for the teachings of Christ and go to Christian church once in a while even. And I hold it all together with the universal teachings of Vedanta, which was the Hindu intellectual's reaction to Buddhism.
So be careful of Bertrand Russell, you never can tell where he might lead!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 17, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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Thanks for that, Jan. It would be interesting to see the waypoints on everyone else's path through these different world views as well. Probably a lot of correspondences. From experience I definitely agree, for example, that Tibetan Buddhism is a great cure for too much Sartre.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 17, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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Yes, I'm always interested in people's life stories and how they got to where they are (I'm a social anthropologists after all). One interesting thing I have discovered in the last couple of years through doing genealogical research, is how many ministers I have in various lines of ancestors. This of course lends credence to the idea of a genetic predisposition toward the philosophical and spiritual. I was quite surprised at this since my own father was an atheist geologist and my mother had been turned off of organized religion at a young age so I was raised in a secular home although my mother passed along her Quaker ethics.
If you want to read about a real character, my great great grandfather Potter fits that bill. He used to preach in the wildest Texas saloons with his winchester leaned against the makeshift pulpit, and if the hecklers got really mean, with his pistol in one hand and Bible in the other! I am but a pale shadow in comparison.
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/PP/fpo28.html
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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Dr F -- ".... smartist people the most likely to be athiests?"
Nope you're the dumbest one. You're so stupid you say these stupid things and then can't even spell.
If you're gonna make a remark like the smartest one at least be smart enough to be able to spell.
I'm you're worst nightmare come true ..........
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 18, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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at least be smart enough to be able to spell.
I'm you're worst nightmare come true ..........
oh the irony.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 18, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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Yes, I'm always interested in people's life stories and how they got to where they are
Absolutely. I especially like the bits of their own history that posters mention on this thread. And we are all telling parts of our life story, basically, or views formed by that story.
14 children! Those were different times.
When our nursing home residents die, the Activities Director puts up short descriptions of their lives on a bulletin board. Nothing fancy, just a few simple facts. Many came from large families.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 18, 2010 - 02:41am PT
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There is always something greater then us and less then us!
God does not owe us anything, we owe Him everything!
It's by grace that we have been saved!
Proverbs 18:10-11, The name of the Lord is a strong tower;
the righteous man runs into it and is safe.
A rich man's wealth is his strong city,
and like a high wall in his imagination.
The Lord Is My Rock and My Fortress
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, the servant of the Lord, who addressed the words of this song to the Lord on the day when the Lord rescued him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul. He said:
Psalms 18, I love you, O Lord, my strength.
2 The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer,
my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge,
my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
3 I call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised,
and I am saved from my enemies.
4 The cords of death encompassed me;
the torrents of destruction assailed me;
5 the cords of Sheol entangled me;
the snares of death confronted me.
6 In my distress I called upon the Lord;
to my God I cried for help.
From his temple he heard my voice,
and my cry to him reached his ears.
7 Then the earth reeled and rocked;
the foundations also of the mountains trembled
and quaked, because he was angry.
8 Smoke went up from his nostrils,
and devouring fire from his mouth;
glowing coals flamed forth from him.
9 He bowed the heavens and came down;
thick darkness was under his feet.
10 He rode on a cherub and flew;
he came swiftly on the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him,
thick clouds dark with water.
12 Out of the brightness before him
hailstones and coals of fire broke through his clouds.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens,
and the Most High uttered his voice,
hailstones and coals of fire.
14 And he sent out his arrows and scattered them;
he flashed forth lightnings and routed them.
15 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
and the foundations of the world were laid bare
at your rebuke, O Lord,
at the blast of the breath of your nostrils.
16 He sent from on high, he took me;
he drew me out of many waters.
17 He rescued me from my strong enemy
and from those who hated me,
for they were too mighty for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
but the Lord was my support.
19 He brought me out into a broad place;
he rescued me, because he delighted in me.
20 The Lord dealt with me according to my righteousness;
according to the cleanness of my hands he rewarded me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all his rules were before me,
and his statutes I did not put away from me.
23 I was blameless before him,
and I kept myself from my guilt.
24 So the Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness,
according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight.
25 With the merciful you show yourself merciful;
with the blameless man you show yourself blameless;
26 with the purified you show yourself pure;
and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.
27 For you save a humble people,
but the haughty eyes you bring down.
28 For it is you who light my lamp;
the Lord my God lightens my darkness.
29 For by you I can run against a troop,
and by my God I can leap over a wall.
30 This God—his way is perfect;
the word of the Lord proves true;
he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
31 For who is God, but the Lord?
And who is a rock, except our God?—
32 the God who equipped me with strength
and made my way blameless.
33 He made my feet like the feet of a deer
and set me secure on the heights.
34 He trains my hands for war,
so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
35 You have given me the shield of your salvation,
and your right hand supported me,
and your gentleness made me great.
36 You gave a wide place for my steps under me,
and my feet did not slip.
37 I pursued my enemies and overtook them,
and did not turn back till they were consumed.
38 I thrust them through, so that they were not able to rise;
they fell under my feet.
39 For you equipped me with strength for the battle;
you made those who rise against me sink under me.
40 You made my enemies turn their backs to me,
and those who hated me I destroyed.
41 They cried for help, but there was none to save;
they cried to the Lord, but he did not answer them.
42 I beat them fine as dust before the wind;
I cast them out like the mire of the streets.
43 You delivered me from strife with the people;
you made me the head of the nations;
people whom I had not known served me.
44 As soon as they heard of me they obeyed me;
foreigners came cringing to me.
45 Foreigners lost heart
and came trembling out of their fortresses.
46 The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock,
and exalted be the God of my salvation—
47 the God who gave me vengeance
and subdued peoples under me,
48 who delivered me from my enemies;
yes, you exalted me above those who rose against me;
you rescued me from the man of violence.
49 For this I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations,
and sing to your name.
50 Great salvation he brings to his king,
and shows steadfast love to his anointed,
to David and his offspring forever.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 18, 2010 - 03:16am PT
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Hey, wait a minute...
On the previous page, Andy posted a bunch of pictures. You know, the usual Andy stuff. Flowers, and bouldering by the sea, and... And then, the very last picture...
It's Jesus!
In Lighthouse Park in West Vancouver!
Holy Moly! 5,000 posts about religion, and Andy just nails it down with one picture.
Well, that's it for me, then. I'm converted. And I'll be on the next bus to Vancouver, for sure.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 18, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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Gobee, once more
God does not owe us anything, we owe Him everything!
He's welcome to it when I'm through with it.
Good thing you are headed up here, Ghost. You are overdue collecting your prize.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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Jan!
Wow! Your Great Gram-pa was, the man! What a life. Cavalryman, cowboy, California Gold rush, traveling preacher..."The Fighting Parson"! And he gave his last sermon and died in the pulpit. What a life!!
Does he have any memoirs or did he keep a diary?
Sure would make a fascinating story!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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MH2!
Yea, those are some beautiful photos!
Yesterday, I was trying to figure out where it was. Thought it was maybe Chesapeake Bay.
Nice, Thanks!!
EDIT: I noticed Ghost's post saying it was Vancouver! Canada is hard to beat for beautiful coastline(I am from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
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...get this meaningless depressing existence over with...
Why is it that you can't perceive or derive "meaning" in the existence of planetary life just as it is? And why do you find a lack of [anthropocentric] "meaning" depressing?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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Dr.F-
I have a relationship, there is nothing that can change that! There is nothing that can come in-between me and Him. I know Him.
This is not some warm and fuzzy feeling. This is the Creator of the universe that I know. He is capable of revealing, making Himself known to anyone who asks! I did at 8 yrs old!
Fossils? So what.
Personally I don't give a damn what any mere man or scientist declares or discovers. I say great. Fossils are awesome. I love to-look at them, and petrified wood. And shells found only in the sea and then are found on mountain tops(how did they get there?Maybe a flood) and valleys.
But it is not my focus. I don't realy care!!!
If you know someone, say a mother or father etc. is anything going to change that? Some discovery, some guy without a clue making assumptions on the Internet saying that they don.t exist?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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What about the flies of Lake Malawi which live at great depths in a larval form form for most of their lives only surfacing as adults in great mating swarms to lay more eggs and then promptly die. What's the "meaning" involved.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 18, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Rokjox:
But in the end, I decided I just didn't understand what happened, but that I would take it at face value, and just accept that it was real, that it did happen.
As someone who has poked micro-electrodes into nerves and read a lot of papers in the field, I would say that your senses are precision instruments. You can trust them above all else. Except a good math theorem, of course.
At more inward parts of the nervous system there is a strong need to interpret what the senses have reported. Sort of like the CIA evaluating the reports of agents but a lot less prone to error. If you have no previous history with an event or class of events then it can be confusing and your brain may try to fit the experience into a slot it doesn't comfortably occupy.
Sometimes it may be better to ignore what the mind suggests and focus on the sense impressions.
Earlier jstan mentioned a talk in which it was said that the eye could detect single photons. This was established long ago at the receptor level, but it is of its nature a statement of probability, since the experimenter can only be sure of directing a single photon at the receptor as an average over many trials, I think. Again operating by averaging many responses, and perhaps more incredible than the single-photon sensitivity, is the result that people can consciously detect somewhere between 5 and 9 photons, at the minimum. That's pretty damn sensitive.
The ear is pretty good too. They say that if it were any more sensitive we would be hearing Brownian motion of air molecules.
I think it is quite interesting that there are two very different ways to view this kind of thing; glass half full or glass half empty. Either the at-the-physical-limit of our primary senses is a marvelous wonder of the natural world, or it is a grim reminder of the extreme pressures of natural selection. What did we need to see in the dark that was so important that 50-90 photons weren't good enough?
TripL7:
The pictures are all from the same day and within about 5 minutes of where I live in Vancouver. Cape Breton is even more beautiful. I hope there are no hard feelings if I am skeptical about the Universe, Life, and Everything being created only a few thousand years ago. You are quite right that you don't really need science or scientists. I think the Amish are more likely to inherit the earth.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
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MH2!
Thanks for the kind words. But of course I do greatly appreciate science and scientist! We wouldn't be having this conversation otherwise. Canada is beautiful, I wish I never left. I am glad that you are able to appreciate it(and share).
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
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You can find spiritual truths in the Bible Doc!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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Dr.F!
Do you believe that science can account for everything?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 18, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
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Proverbs 19:2-3, Desire without knowledge is not good,
and whoever makes haste with his feet misses his way.
When a man's folly brings his way to ruin,
his heart rages against the Lord
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
John 14:27-28, Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Jeremiah 31:15-30, Thus says the Lord:
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
lamentation and bitter weeping.
Rachel is weeping for her children;
she refuses to be comforted for her children,
because they are no more.”
Thus says the Lord:
“Keep your voice from weeping,
and your eyes from tears,
for there is a reward for your work,
declares the Lord,
and they shall come back from the land of the enemy.
There is hope for your future,
declares the Lord,
and your children shall come back to their own country.
I have heard Ephraim grieving,
‘You have disciplined me, and I was disciplined,
like an untrained calf;
bring me back that I may be restored,
for you are the Lord my God.
For after I had turned away, I relented,
and after I was instructed, I struck my thigh;
I was ashamed, and I was confounded,
because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’
Is Ephraim my dear son?
Is he my darling child?
For as often as I speak against him,
I do remember him still.
Therefore my heart yearns for him;
I will surely have mercy on him,
declares the Lord.
“Set up road markers for yourself;
make yourself guideposts;
consider well the highway,
the road by which you went.
Return, O virgin Israel,
return to these your cities.
How long will you waver,
O faithless daughter?
For the Lord has created a new thing on the earth:
a woman encircles a man.”
Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Once more they shall use these words in the land of Judah and in its cities, when I restore their fortunes:
“‘The Lord bless you, O habitation of righteousness,
O holy hill!’
And Judah and all its cities shall dwell there together, and the farmers and those who wander with their flocks. For I will satisfy the weary soul, and every languishing soul I will replenish.”
At this I awoke and looked, and my sleep was pleasant to me.
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. And it shall come to pass that as I have watched over them to pluck up and break down, to overthrow, destroy, and bring harm, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, declares the Lord. In those days they shall no longer say:
“‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.’
But everyone shall die for his own sin. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
Luke 19:41-44, And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
Romans 11:25-27, Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“**and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins**.”
The Law of the Lord Is Perfect
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
Psalm 19, The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2 Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4 Their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them he has set a tent for the sun,
5 which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
and its circuit to the end of them,
and there is nothing hidden from its heat.
7 The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can discern his errors?
Declare me innocent from hidden faults.
13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins;
let them not have dominion over me!
Then I shall be blameless,
and innocent of great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be acceptable in your sight,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.
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