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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 10, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
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For a supposedly "civilized" society we have a lot of gun violence. I find it ironic that several feel the answer to that problem is more guns. It must suck to be that paranoid every day.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
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I find it ironic that several feel the answer to that problem is more guns. It must suck to be that paranoid every day.
Oh, now that's funny. And disingenuous.
Do you lock your house? Your car? Do you have a car alarm? Do you protect your wallet when you're out in public? It must suck to be that paranoid every day.
Oh, wait! Silly me. These are all PASSIVE approaches to fighting crime. You would never engage in any ACTIVE approach.
Oh, wait! Silly me. You DO believe in hiring cops and perhaps even more cops. THAT'S the only "legitimate" approach to ACTIVE crime fighting.
So, you would much prefer to proxy off your active crime fighting. You still do it, but you just prefer to not get your own hands dirty (or take any personal responsibility for it). And if the cops are bad (and terrible shots!), oh well, not YOUR problem, because YOU don't take any personal responsibility.
And the line is very true: When seconds count, the cops are mere moments away. But that's okay, because it's "paranoid" to have ANY capacity to respond (probably BETTER than the cops) within seconds rather than to wait minutes.
Yeah, right. Look at this "highly trained" goofball: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5iIY0zelGI
My favorite line is: "Okay, I'm the only one in this room professional enough, that I know of, to carry the Glock 40."
For myself, my wife, and other gun-carriers I know, we ALL put in far, far more time in practice and training than the vast majority of the cops. And if you want to talk knowledge of the law, well, I'd be happy to supply a bunch more videos showing how clueless so many cops are.
These are, of course, generalizations. But there is a hard core of reality behind the generalizations.
If you prefer to wait and let the cops "protect you," be my guest. Just don't think you have the high moral ground because you choose to PROXY your self defense off to "professionals" that literally CANNOT do it as well or in as timely fashion as you can yourself (with a bit of personal responsibility and training).
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 10, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
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Without delving DEEPLY into socioeconomic issues, serious discussion of gun-related violence is a non-starter.
Spot on.
In the past I've had some, er, "interactions" with the police. It was not a comfortable situation. These guys were scary. They were armed and had the Dirty Harry look and attitude. If these guys, trained professionals, scared the bejesus out of me, and rightfully so, how is it you think people are supposed to feel all warm and fuzzy inside when some tatted up guy with a braided beard and a weapon shows up in public?
In Florida, if the guy in the video a few pages back showed up at a restaurant, would it be legal to shoot if you feel threatened?
Madbolter, if you showed up carrying, it wouldn't worry me, but how about a stranger. Or even worse, Ron, looking for biscuits!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
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Madbolter, if you showed up carrying, it wouldn't worry me, but how about a stranger.
I appreciate the vote of confidence, and I TOTALLY get your point and concern. I don't know any answer to that one, much less an easy one.
There really is no panacea solution, imho. Perhaps it should be HARDER to get a license to open-carry than to CC. I don't know.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Jul 10, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
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Stahlbro,
You may want to read the beginning of this thread. A nice doctor explained the fear you describe.The problem is it's not the gun adadvocates that have the issues. It's a must read before spouting off in the same thread many pages later.
Just makes so many on here look so bad it's literally hilarious.
Burly Bob
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 10, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
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Do they make bulletproof jam?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 10, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
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I did read it. I don't agree. I have stated my position plainly. Convince me otherwise.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Jul 11, 2014 - 08:34am PT
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I'm still waiting for any legitimate reason for a civilian to carry a loaded military rifle in a public place (or even a single shot hunting rifle, or black powder musket for that matter). What you do on private property is your business.
TE
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 11, 2014 - 10:04am PT
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It really seems there should be different rules for cities vs. the country. In a small town with a lot of hunting I wouldn't be surprised or offended if a group of guys came into a coffee shop with rifles. But at a club in the city it would be far different.
But there are some gun nut state legislators who have passed laws that say municipalities can't pass laws banning carrying in cities/towns if it's allowed in the state.
Open carry is probably a much better deterrent than concealed. If a criminal sees you with a gun they would likely leave you alone and look for an easier target. It's like a big dog on your property. Someone could still poison it or kill it, but why when they can find other properties without dogs.
Any type of carry may help. But it can only do so much. If someone draws on you first, it doesn't really matter that you have a gun. I'm sure there are lots of people who carry who engage in riskier behavior because they have a gun. It's much safer to avoid a bad situation in the first place.
I was thinking about if I would carry why would I. And I realized probably a lot of people who carry want to be heroes (I just realized if I'm honest with myself it would be one of the primary reasons I'd carry). I've gone my whole life without ever needing a gun (I'm glad I didn't carry one all this time for no reason, that's like carrying the weight of two cams around with you everyday). And I will probably go the rest of my life without every needing a gun. But I imagine in the extremely small chance that I'd be at a public shooting situation in a school, theater, etc. the thought of being able to stop that is really appealing. The whole "a good guy with a gun" thing you hear about.
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A5scott
Trad climber
Chicago
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Jul 11, 2014 - 10:18am PT
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TE, I'm not one of the texas long gun open carry folks but this is why they are doing what they are. They are carrying long guns openly to protest that they can't carry pistols openly. In Texas, they can conceal carry pistols, but open carry pistols is illegal and they believe that's silly. I understand if you don't want anybody carrying rifles and maybe pistols, for whatever reasons you may have. Let me say that in Texas, there are about 65,000 criminal convictions each year. of those 65,000 convictions, about 120 of the convictions are from those licensed to carry a gun. in 2012 texas there were 395 murders. one murder by a licensed CCW holder. So to say that they are violent and harming others is at a rate more than the average person is completely wrong.
65,000 criminal conviction. about 120 by CCW holders. and not all of those convictions are violent in nature.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2012.pdf
scott
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A5scott
Trad climber
Chicago
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Jul 11, 2014 - 11:51am PT
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one big problem with having different municipalities within a state having all kinds of different laws just creates more regulators and books of regulations that will only make a criminal out of someone with no intent to harm others. simply by driving from one town to the next can get a CCW holder a free ride to jail and property seized and rights stripped. The only guarantee is that a criminal with intent to kill has zero regard for any town, state, or federal law/regulation
My drivers license is illinois. I'm from NJ, went to college in PA, and I spend 3 months a year in CT.
I live in downtown chicago. AR-15's and other rifles with a pistol grip are legal in illinois. I can buy 100 round mags, AR-15's whatever I want. They just can't be stored in Chicago. So, many FFL and gun ranges offer storage of chicago illegal firearms. northern indiana FFL's offer safe storage. There is nothing stopping anybody from keeping them in their chicago residence, other than the fear of being turned into a criminal, with no intent to harm others. Illinois trusts legal gun owners but chicago doesn't.
At my parents in Ridgefield, CT, they live 2 miles from NY. If we have a gun in the car, legal in CT, but drive thru NY, we are felons. NY doesn't honor the federal law that protects drivers going from one legal state to another legal state to shoot at a range, competition etc. 100% chance that we are spending tens of thousands on lawyers.
I spend a lot of time in PA, near NJ. My brother is in NJ. If i have a loaded pistol, legal in PA and go to NJ, I'm a felon. with no intent to harm others, I'm a felon. At least the Delaware river makes it difficult to make that mistake.
having different sets of laws just creates problems for the benign gun owner. The gang bangers and drug trade people don't care about laws, well except for breaking them, because that's a way to advance up the gang leadership pole.
as far as open vs. CCW? which is better? hard to say. If I'd open carry, that could just make me the first target. kill me, get my gun then harm others. CCW the criminals don't know who to mess with.
that Dian Sawyer video trying to show CCW people are stupid... they mark the helmet of the one person with the gun, so the gunman comes in and shoots him before he can react. set up to fail.
most criminals want the least resistance possible. at the sight of a gun, most are gone.
i'm sure some want to be heroes. nobody wants to be the goat. nobody wants to be dead. Most would like some chance to defend self. Not everybody wants to be the sheepdog and protect the masses. I think the majority just want to protect self and family.
scott
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 11, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
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i'm sure some want to be heroes. nobody wants to be the goat. nobody wants to be dead. Most would like some chance to defend self. Not everybody wants to be the sheepdog and protect the masses. I think the majority just want to protect self and family.
SUCH a well-crafted post, Scott. You've really expressed the sometimes conflicting considerations of taking such a responsibility. And it is so true that a gun tends to "magnify" whatever sort of personality a person already has.
I do think that the great "equalizer" in gun carry is how serious are the repercussions if you ever do shoot someone! You almost certainly will be arrested and go out in cuffs. And from there, there are only two possible outcomes: 1) your shooting will be determined to be 100% legitimate, or 2) you are going to prison. So, exacting knowledge of the law, coupled with going over countless "what if" scenarios for legitimacy are both necessary conditions for being responsible at this level. That weight has a mitigating effect on people that even have a "hero" or "bad ass" complex.
Hopefully it is mitigating enough. As we see from CCW and open-carry states, it seems to be in the vast majority of cases.
When I took Kung Fu (a sort of hybrid, street-fight version) for six years, our instructor used to tell us often, "You are doing well, but don't act like a bad-ass. No matter how bad-ass you ever become, there IS somebody out there that can KICK your ass. And you won't know who he is until after you wake up from it... IF you wake up from it." That has stuck in my mind over the many years, and I've always been one to "run from a fight" if possible.
Let's face it, even a "fist fight" can quickly escalate into much, much more! Being armed for the most extreme contingency MEANS doing everything possible to AVOID even the start of an escalation!
And a gun carrier should KNOW that every word, every gesture, every expression will be evaluated by at least a grand jury, not to mention internal recriminations as one later reviews what he/she might have done differently or better to avoid shooting someone.
It is DEADLY force, and carries deadly responsibility! "Bad-ass" types should really look in the mirror, take a deep breath, and ask: "Is my personality or attitude going to get somebody needlessly killed and me dead or in prison?" Probably good medicine to take at least once daily!
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Jul 11, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
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The Fet said, "Any type of carry may help. But it can only do so much. If someone draws on you first, it doesn't really matter that you have a gun. I'm sure there are lots of people who carry who engage in riskier behavior because they have a gun. It's much safer to avoid a bad situation in the first place.
I would strongly disagree with this paragraph on many points. If someone draws first it doesn't matter who gets a hand on what first. Training will prevail in nearly every situation. That is why we train. Madbolter covered this somewhat. If someone was stupid enough to draw on myself or one of the people I train with, I am afraid he would have made a grave error. Training would take over reactions and he would be the recipient of a controlled pair to the torso or head, depending...
Partake in riskier behavior? Huh? What in the world would make someone think this. Quite the opposite. As a CCW participant, I would agree I am much more aware of my surroundings, people seen and not. I see no parallel of riskier behavior when carrying a gun as not. It may help someone to go through a scarier situation with more confidence, but why in the world would I walk into trouble when the whole point is self preservation and protection of loved ones, rather than walk away. I don't see your logic, but I see it quite differently. Your last sentence sums up the attitude of all the carriers I know. I think we are more aware of what is going on in the world than your average Joe, due to training, and practice. I know I have been spotted as a ccw by others doing the same, only because we check out all those that could have an opportunity to do us harm, and a gun printing a shirt lets me know there is potential, good or bad.
Scott said, "
as far as open vs. CCW? which is better? hard to say. If I'd open carry, that could just make me the first target. kill me, get my gun then harm others. CCW the criminals don't know who to mess with.
that Dian Sawyer video trying to show CCW people are stupid... they mark the helmet of the one person with the gun, so the gunman comes in and shoots him before he can react. set up to fail.
most criminals want the least resistance possible. at the sight of a gun, most are gone.
Open carry would indeed make you first on an elimination list should you find yourself in a bad way. You may be right that most criminals want the least resistance. When a mugger is scoping out a few folks for his next mark, A concealed carry person will probably not be on the list of maybes. It has to do with eye contact and body English. If you carry and train at all, your body motions and eyes won't exude "victim". If you were to be caught up in being in the wrong place at the wrong time, you have the tactical advantage as you know who is trouble, but you appear as another "Joe" to the threat. Been drilled into my head by many a trainer.
I applaud madbolter1 for his choices and his great use and articulation of words. A mature and reasonable response to some unlike thinkers goes a lot further than an unruly loudmouth trying to make the whole world see things his way. I also love his attitude of not being a victim any longer, but is proactive in his own safety. We met near the bridge a couple years ago, my wife did not please you, and your reaction to her make me laugh heartily. You certainly are a character, and wish I had conversed more with you.
The fet, I see you may have read it and don't agree. I tend to find the article and topic very well written and documented by a professional. I can see someone who doesn't like it as disagreeing, but not offering up any solid arguments backed with credentials, and experience in the field just doesn't convince me. A climbing partner who is also qualified carries the same opinion as the article writer. Hmm.
Burly Bob
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 12, 2014 - 07:55am PT
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TradEddie posted I'm still waiting for any legitimate reason for a civilian to carry a loaded military rifle in a public place (or even a single shot hunting rifle, or black powder musket for that matter). What you do on private property is your business.
Because if you don't exercise your rights then you lose them, see? That's why I'm always telling soldiers that they cannot stay at my house and screaming offensive words in public places. It's what the Founding Fathers would have wanted.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Jul 12, 2014 - 09:20am PT
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Funny how many that argue against guns know damm little about them.. "Military rifles"??? Im willing to bet there wasnt ONE "military rifle" displayed in Texas by a citizen,, not ONE..
I have never argued against guns, only for laws that make it more difficult for criminals to get guns, mandatory training for carrying guns in public places and laws that make irresponsible ownership a criminal offense. I would also make dealers subject to much more extensive requirements with regards to security and record-keeping, and much stricter criminal punishments for those that fail to meet them.
As for the "military rifles", I was simply trying to avoid the "assault rifle" quagmire. There was a picture of a man carrying an AK-47 style rifle in Target a few pages back, you can classify it however you want, just give me an answer to my question.
Lastly, I voluntarily served in the military reserves of my native country, if your definition of a military rifle is a full-auto rifle in use by the military, I've fired far more "military rifles" than you.
TE
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Jul 12, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
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Interesting article linked above by Stahlbro about carrying a gun increases your chances of being shot. I've often wondered if conceal carry emboldens people to "stand their ground" and escalate situations tragically, because instead of compromising in a conflict one can be inflexible and increasingly provocative knowing that one has the ultimate backup.
I disagree with Ron about open carrying is a deterrent. It could also be seen as provocative and put you at risk of being targeted. Almost all US LEO these days wear bullet proof vests, even park rangers these days, just because their uniform, authority and appearance ironically MAKE them a target. I think there is a criminal/mentally ill element out there that might want your gun and try to steal it and target you, and others that may want to push your buttons and heckle you about it and get confrontational.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Jul 12, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
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And feel free to point out any recent cases of LEOs just being targeted out of the blue due to a uniform or carrying a gun that werent in the act of a chase ,arrest or case working.
WHAT FREAKING PLANET are you living on? It just happened in your own state, national news, two of your fellow militiamen/Bundy supporters murdered two cops sitting drinking coffee then murdered a CCW gun nut.
TE
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