Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
|
the existence of emotions is at least tangential evidence of a soul. How so? You see, it's hard not to quibble when people say things like this. It's evidence that people get emotional. Why would emotions be evidence of a soul anymore than say people's propensity for yawning or biting their nails? Saying it doesn't make it so. Or does It?
And I am bothered how you conflagrate "atheists" and "agnostics" together. This is my fault. I have stated earlier that I am an atheist regarding all the old and current religions and religious thinking, and agnostic regarding the existence of god(s). Sorry for the confusion.
This acceptance of possibility is a tremendous advantage over the Atheist Possibly, but I sometimes think that being open to all possibilities is a bit much. Dig too many wells and none of them get very deep.
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
|
ok, "enlightenment" has a significance in the religious sense that very much differs from the dictionary meaning...this is a religious-oriented thread...there was a question about the meaning of "enlightenment"...i provided a meaning in the religious sense
religiously speaking, "enlightenment" refers to a state of being that transcends the physical...no, atheists cannot achieve enlightenment in this sense because they do not believe in the transcendent (that's not a criticism; it's a fact)
if you want to use the 17th and 18th century meanings, which refers strictly to an intellectual understanding of the physical world (i.e. knowing gravity causes objects to fall), then, yes, anyone can be 'enlightened'
ok, technically, the dalai lama (by the way, i was wrong, he's the 14th reincarnation) is a bodhisatva, which is the stage just before enlightenment...bodhisatvas have decided to postpone their own enlightenment in order to help others achieve enlightenment...though many adherents of tibetan buddhism believe the dalai lama to be enlightened, thus their veneration for him...but the whole premise of buddhism is the possibility of achieving enlightenment as did siddhartha gautama, the first buddha
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
|
The soul is the seat of feelings, desires, and emotions. The non-material element of man, the most important part of human existence, as seen in the human personality. This element lives on after the death of the body, and will ultimately be joined again with a resurrected body to spend eternity in...
Just keeping it real
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
|
"proof that agw is a religion:"
Several days ago I suggested americans now consider politics to be a "religion". I also said that compromise. more compromise , followed by even more compromise is the only thing allowing a modern nation state to avoid becoming a failed state.
Anytime we find a body of legislators responding as a unified block across all issues that come before it, we know there is no compromise and that that state is headed for failure.
I can’t tell you how encouraging it is to see even one other person conclude, as have I, that religion and politics in the US have merged into a single entity.
Now as to Haiti:
Many years ago I read reports suggesting earthquakes from shallow sources could be affected by water in deep aquifers acting as a lubricant or otherwise reducing the strength of chemical bonds. There was speculation pumping water into deep wells might be a way to release stress at depth. Recently we had a surface landslide just north of Ventura along the coast where the court found in favor of litigants who claimed the slide was caused by irrigation of an avocado grove. Another recent example involved possible causes for a rock fall in Yosemite.
There have been many mud slides in Haiti caused by the nearly complete destruction of that country's forests in order to produce charcoal. Accelerated clear cutting of our own forests so that they might be more "healthy" causes, me at least, to be concerned there is potentially a parallel here in the US.
The first thing one might do to discover a basis for Mr. Glover's contention, would be to find the depth and location of the epicenter for the land movement that took place in Haiti.
So shall we try?
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/LPAA-7ZNB4Q?OpenDocument
Data, as of now, suggests the epicenter was very shallow as earthquakes go, about eight or nine miles down and located 10 miles west of Port au Prince along a major slip fault.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/HaitiEarthquake/haiti-shallow-earthquake-magnified-damage-californias-san-andreas/story?id=9562379
I am not a structural geologist but I would think connecting an earthquake, even one this shallow to changes in surface water from either climate changes or the destruction of forests, is going to be difficult. The Dominican Republic has protected its forests and the epicenter was located further to the west. But I think one should not make too much out of that. Surely I would expect deforested areas to suffer additional slides in an earthquake as compared to less heavily clear cut areas.
Now the question of possible importance of water comes down to transfer time. The temperature and pressure at depth in the crust depends upon the nature of the overburden but we can find average values. At a depth of nine miles the temperature might be at about 540ºK and the pressure might be around 405 MPa. Water’s gas/liquid phase critical point is at an even higher temperature so the two phases are not yet indistinguishable. Using these numbers any H2O at this depth would seem to be liquid, providing it is pure. Which of course it won’t be. Arguably water can exist at depth. The question is how long does it take changes in water at the surface to propagate into changes at depth. Since we do not know the detailed nature of this overburden it is hard to say. We do know a fault is present.
In summary, without obtaining an idea of the rapidity with which surface changes can lead to changes at depth we cannot connect this event causally to what has been happening on the surface in recent history. I would expect the transfer rate is pretty slow but perhaps the structural geologists out there can help us out.
If we continue to treat decisions affecting the material world to be just another form of “belief”, all the work of George Washington’s people and of all those who followed will have come to naught.
Does the pleasure we get from “knowing” we have the only “true” belief justify sacrificing our country?
It would seem a number of people have decided - just this.
Edit:
I was responding to a post on this thread. If you think it might be of interest over there, be my guest. Cross post it. I did not catch your man-made post. Have to go look for it now.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
|
Dr F -- "So if ...."
Always guessing, speculating and then finalizing your own pure brand of bullsh'it.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
|
I guess the atom didn't exist before we could prove it did.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
|
That's it .... keep on guessing and speculating, Dr F.
Real scientific .....
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
|
Dr.F!
"All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth? ...and then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 3:20-21, 12:7.
Breath being the sign and symbol of life.
Both humans and beasts die and go to the grave. But this is not the end for human beings-they will face eternal life or death.
Man is body soul and spirit! Animals do not have a soul or spirit. They were not made in God's image. They seize to exist.
"Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground(implies that there is nothing fancy about the chemical elements making up our bodies. The body is a lifeless shell until He breaths life into it)and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being."
"Then God said, let us make man in Our image, according to our likeness." describes the infusion of the human spirit, with its moral, intellectual, relational, and spiritual capacities.
Humans are unique.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
|
Animals do not have a soul or spirit.
That's not true at all. 10000 percent false.
That's the worst thing you've ever said.
Terrible ......
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
|
Werner- "That's not true."
I'll be honest WB, I am not sure what happens to animals after death, and I was going to state that. They certainly have life, and distinct personalities. I just know that they are not judged, or held accountable as we are after life. Personally I hope my dogs will be with me for eternity.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2010 - 12:02am PT
|
Humans have a distinct spirit.
We are body, soul, and spirit.
Nothing else living has a spirit that can commune with God!
What animals are...I do not know. I just know that humans are unique in that aspect.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2010 - 12:11am PT
|
Dr.F- "Animals don't get any special treatment by God"
"Look at the birds of the air, for the neither sow nor reap, nor gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them..." Mathew 6:26(Jesus speaking).
Doc, open up the Bible and read it...might learn something new.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2010 - 12:20am PT
|
Dr.F!
"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent, and yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father." Mathew 10:29.
Sounds like God is concerned about their well being, and protects and cares for them.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2010 - 12:22am PT
|
Dr.F!
You should stop making false accusations about it then...sorta ruins your credibility.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2010 - 12:27am PT
|
Humans have a distinct spirit.
We are body, soul, and spirit.
Nothing else living has a spirit that can commune with God!
TripL7,
I thought you earlier expressed an acceptance of evolution, though perhaps only as a part of God's creation. If so, would Neanderthal not have had a soul?
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2010 - 12:29am PT
|
MH2!
When did I express an exceptance of evolution? Never did. I believe we were created.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2010 - 12:37am PT
|
As only as a part of God's creation. No! The closest I came to that was saying that perhaps God created the earth with age. Or that light shined instantly.
But frankly, I believe it is just as it is stated...six day's.
And as I have previously stated...believe He could have done it in six seconds if He had chose to. He took six day's to give us humans an example, that all work and no play(rest)is not healthy. That goes for the poor animals(beasts of burden)He was thinking as much of them as He was of us.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2010 - 12:47am PT
|
I love how this thread somehow recovers its equilibrium each time I think it's finally going to implode. Great discussion between bc and Rox!
Dr. F-
There is no reason an atheist could not become enlightened. In fact there are schools of Buddhism which are thought to be atheistic or at least non theistic, especially the southern Theravada school which many believe to be the original Buddhism. Zen gets pretty close as well. Also in my experience, the Buddhists are the least sectarian of all the religious groups, which is a big plus in my books.
The reason I mention that dread word religion at all, is that at some point in time if you were to seriously pursue it, you are going to need the advice of someone more advanced than yourself. The pursuit of enlightenment is not for the faint hearted. In fact, if you wanted to do an analogy with climbing El Cap, that would work really well. You don't just go out and buy a rack and climb the thing. It takes many years to acquire that skill level, and you can have accidents along the way. You want the equivalent of YOSAR waiting in the wings.
Ed and I had quite a few discussions up thread about the unique electrical and biochemical processes that go on in the brain, in the process of that kind of training. These brain changes are just beginning to be measured. For those that experience them, there is no doubt however, that whatever it is, (God, one's own higher self, the vagaries of physiology when the brain concentrates on itself etc.), it works through the medium of the human brain. As the Buddhists say, we can only become enlightened in this body now.
The hardest part for many people, given the nature of the ego, is how to initiate the process. In my experience you don't have to make a formal declaration to or about anything outside yourself. All you have to do is say, "I'm open to the idea that there is something more in this universe/my own head, and I will be diligent in seeking it with an open mind from this point forth". For me, pretty dramatic biochemical changes began to happen soon after.
As for not getting results in the past, I think this could come from two things. You have a lot of internal garbage to work through and it's slow going (I come from a really dysfunctional family so I know that problem really well) or you were simply on the wrong path for your own talents and personality. Sometimes just changing the vocabulary you use, is enough to change your whole attitude and give a break through.
Meanwhile, we can all work on our own karma. If you do good for others, this makes you more receptive to your own higher nature and at the least people will say, what a kind hearted atheist.
What's to lose?
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2010 - 01:00am PT
|
Dr.F- "What about the people who can't read, how are they supposed to figure it out?"
Helen Keller figured it out!! She couldn't read write, hear see, talk...when she could communicate and was told about God/Jesus she said "I knew Him, I just didn't know His name."
God communicated with her.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Jan 16, 2010 - 01:04am PT
|
If we continue to treat decisions affecting the material world to be just another form of “belief”, all the work of George Washington’s people and of all those who followed will have come to naught.
An acquaintance of mine mentioned that he had recently seen one of those nighttime views of the planet. The East Coast of North America was a solid blaze of light. There was a noticeable crescent probably around Chicago. The West Coast was bright from Vancouver down to San Diego or thereabouts. Large parts of the Mid West and the Mountain states were dark. Especially Idaho, Rox.
We have also been hearing about planet-wide warming, melting ice, rising sea levels, and the disaster that could result.
Geology prof Tim Mutch, he of a couple of Gunks FAs, once told his class that, whether the Gaia Hypothesis was a notion any hard-headed scientist might care to entertain, it did seem, when one thought about it, that the planet must have maintained a reasonable degree of equilibrium one way or another for a long long time. His example was the salinity of the oceans, which get sodium, chlorine, magnesium, and such from rivers, and unless they had a way to lose salts would become saturated. Tim Mutch explained that over the long stretches of geologic time, as tectonic plates shifted, parts of ocean became inland seas such as the one that covered a large part of North America. These inland seas were comparatively shallow, ultimately dried up, and the salt deposits are now safely under such places as Rochester, NY.
Whether that story about maintaining the salinity of the oceans is true or just a fable, I don't know. But I did get an eerie sensation when my friend mentioned the light-the-night evidence of human coastal habitation, all the automobiles and energy it signified, and thought about a slow-but-sure planet reacting to that fire by raising sea level to put it out.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!