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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:41am PT
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Dr. F-
The Dalai Lama's life is not exactly hidden, nor any of those whose names I mentioned.
To find out what they have to offer however, you have to search them out with an open mind.You have to read what they've written with an open mind, and most difficult of all, you have to examine your own heart and mind with all its pain and all your own reflexive self defensiveness based on that past pain.Once you figure out where it came from, you have to do the hardest thing of all, and that is forgive those who dished it out to you. Then you will see some real changes in your life.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that something(s) very painful occurred in your life to flip you from super religious as you self describe to super anti religious and mad as hell about it. Generally the people closest to us have hurt us the most and that becomes really toxic if the pain was inflicted in the name of religion.
And Rokjox is correct. We are already enlightened, we were created in the image and likeness, but our ignorance, our willful self destructiveness, and the great pain humans inflict on each other have obscured that fact.
When Buddha said he brought an end to suffering or Christ said he came with good news, the message from vastly different perspectives was that you can free yourself from pain with the help of those who have gone before, and once you're no longer suffering you can be of some real use to humanity.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 15, 2010 - 04:00am PT
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"enlightenment" is a tricky subject.
Sort of like "Love"
Somebody gets a boner and calls it Love. Somebody else might see their connection with every person with great compassion and understanding....They might also call it Love. We don't have a device to measure it.
Somebody else gets a flash of insight, and compared to where they were before, they feel, enlightened. Somebody else lets go of their whole idea of themselves but still finds that their Spirit shines on beneath the ideas and blossoms into the manifest center of their Being. That's self-realization, another form of Enlightenment.
Beyond Self-realization is God-Realization, where your Spirit is joined with the Spirit of All. That's the Jesus Christ, Buddha sort of attainment and I suspect those folks come on a mission to serve.
But its folly to try to judge and rationalize things that are well beyond your understanding and say "An Enlightened One would say this or do that." An enlightened one has a different view and an inner vision that directs their actions. They know better than to tell you they are enlightened or to jump through your hoops to prove it. They see that things happen for reasons that sometimes can't be changed and know better than to try to force events into some idealized fairy tale.
The thing that self-realization gives you is not a power to make things different, but to understand who you are and to have a non-rational non-linear download that transmits the perfection and order of every moment and every person. You can point to it but it's ultimately beyond words and concepts, like the highest expression of Love also defies a definition.
Everyone is master of their own path. They will get help when they are truly open to it, and until then, no enlightened anybody will interfere with their sovereignty. Seek and you will find, if you get out of your own way. Seek to deny and you'll get that for sure.
Peace
Karl
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jan 15, 2010 - 07:31am PT
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"Gary Cass, chairman and CEO of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission, issued a statement saying that while Robertson's comments made him an "easy target" for criticism, they are essentially theologically sound. "
"Cass, who before taking his current job in 2007 worked three years as executive director of the Center for Reclaiming America for Christ, an outreach of the late D. James Kennedy's Coral Ridge Ministries, said the Bible talks of connections between historical realities and spiritual influences when it uses the terms "blessing or cursing."
"Gary Cass is president and CEO of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission.
Cass said the majority of Americans believe in moral causality. Eastern religious call it "karma," while Christians call it "God's providence." In that regard, he said, Robertson's comments were "well within the bounds of historic Christian theology."
Rev. Robertson's remarks are NOT theologically sound. These individuals need open the Bibles they insist on waving over their heads and read what is written therein.... There is nothing in biblical canon suggesting one can sell their souls to, or pact with Satan. Nothing !
The covenanting with Satan concept was popularized by Faust and embellished into a rude folklore discrete from authentic Christianity.
Apart from Rev Robertson's foolishness telling "devil stories" in the wake of tragedy, it's travesty for these individuals to propose Robertson has entitlement to preside over, pontificate or interpolate these events on behalf of God. And Christians lack entitlement to gloat over the demise of a nation of innocents .....and are specifically directed to show compassion and charity to the downtrodden and afflicted.
Please save the "devil stories" for Halloween, Reverend. Read that Bible you deftly use to trump scientific evidence, common sense and everything else contrary to your agenda. Satan lacks the power to crisp your french fries.......in no way does he have might to deliver the Haitians "from under the heel of the French." That was effected by Black Haitian generals and Black Haitian soldiers.......and yes, with help from the Almighty.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2010 - 09:12am PT
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"When the Dalai Lama says he is a simple Buddhist monk for example"
the dalai lama claims to be the 13th reincarnation of an enlightened soul...not exactly a "simple" or modest claim
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 09:34am PT
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Rokjox,
Atheists got a lot of preconceptions.
Such as...
(Lots os preconceptions about atheists on this thread.)
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 10:06am PT
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Just for the record, I'm agnostic on the existence of god, but you claimed "lots" and that this makes it hard for them to be "enlightened". Does one have to think or believe there is a god to be enlightened? Is religion the only path? Why would a god belief or religiosity make it easier? What other atheist preconceptions would make it harder? Just curious since others on this thread have made claims to what atheists are like, but I suspect they really haven't looked into it much.
I would say that it's likely the average atheist/agnostic has less peconceptions than the religious, who are handed a bunch of stuff to believe and follow. We are less likely to be hoodwinked by the religious BS concerning what's out there. Atheists and agnostics come in many varieties, but most have a healthy skepticism about religious claims. However, this does not mean that we are incapable of spiritual living or thought.
Edit: There is nothing you need to do first in order to be enlightened. Thaddeus Golas
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2010 - 10:51am PT
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"What other atheist preconceptions would make it harder?"
being "enlightened" doesn't mean being really smart or wise
"enlightenment" refers to a state of being that transcends the physical world, which, logically, asserts a non-physical existence (i.e. a soul)...atheists do not believe in the soul, ergo, they do not have any need/desire for enlightenment
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:47am PT
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bookworm,
being "enlightened" doesn't mean being really smart or wise
Who made that claim? I would never say that. Atheists and agnostics can be as smart or stupid as anyone else.
"enlightenment" refers to a state of being that transcends the physical world, which, logically, asserts a non-physical existence (i.e. a soul)...atheists do not believe in the soul, ergo, they do not have any need/desire for enlightenment
Really.
Main Entry: en·light·en·ment
Pronunciation: \in-ˈlī-tən-mənt, en-\
Function: noun
Date: 1654
1 : the act or means of enlightening : the state of being enlightened
2 capitalized : a philosophic movement of the 18th century marked by a rejection of traditional social, religious, and political ideas and an emphasis on rationalism —used with the
3 Buddhism : a final blessed state marked by the absence of desire or suffering (emphasis mine)
Main Entry: enlightened
Function: adjective
Date: 1652
1 : freed from ignorance and misinformation
2 : based on full comprehension of the problems involved
I realize these are dictionary references, however, I see no mention of a "non-physical existence" or "soul". I'm sure the idea of a soul figures large in most religious practices that claim to offer enlightenment, however your assumption that it is required is, well, an assumption. You've raised a straw man arguement based on your own narrow definition of what you think enlightenment and a soul is and of what atheists think and then assert what you think atheists "need/desire" (enlightenment denied!)
Atheists by definition do not believe in any god(s). The existence of a human soul or spirit however may be possible, but its existence would not be tied to any gods because they do not exist. Are you certain that "non-physical existence" = "soul"? The existence, definition and use of a "soul" is debatable and varies widely.
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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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Well, after 5,256 messages in this thread, has anybody changed their mind?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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Yes, but they haven't changed their positions.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 15, 2010 - 11:58am PT
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Amazing Grace
Norwegian says, about this song;
"its better without the crass accusation that we're wretches.
i maintain my wretch status.
so do christians really tell their kids that they are wretches?
i just cant imagine that.
i mean, im kinda ok about perpetuating the st. nick shoved his tail down our stove pipe and at the cookies and all...
but, wretches? thats fuked.
i see my one cent rolling down the coarse pavement unnoticed for my one cent won't even buy the cheapest trick or candy anymore."
Children are innocent until they come of age, but they don't like to share sometimes, and do things that if an adult did them would make you wonder! Our grandson pulls the table cloth off the table all the time with stuff on it and thinks it's funny, we say please don't do that, and so it goes, it's kind of cute but he's a child!
That song is about the love of God, that even though we have done wrong, Jesus gave His life for us and God forgives and loves us because of who He is!
If you know you are a wretch, and God's unmerited love still welcomes you, now that's an amazing... song!
Now that's enlightenment, having your sin's wiped away!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Who Shall Dwell on Your Holy Hill?
A Psalm of David.
Psalm 15, O Lord, who shall sojourn in your tent?
Who shall dwell on your holy hill?
2 He who walks blamelessly and does what is right
and speaks truth in his heart;
3 who does not slander with his tongue
and does no evil to his neighbor,
nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 in whose eyes a vile person is despised,
but who honors those who fear the Lord;
who swears to his own hurt and does not change;
5 who does not put out his money at interest
and does not take a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things shall never be moved.
Proverbs 15, A soft answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.
2 The tongue of the wise commends knowledge,
but the mouths of fools pour out folly.
3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place,
keeping watch on the evil and the good.
4 A gentle tongue is a tree of life,
but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.
5 A fool despises his father's instruction,
but whoever heeds reproof is prudent.
6 In the house of the righteous there is much treasure,
but trouble befalls the income of the wicked.
7 The lips of the wise spread knowledge;
not so the hearts of fools.
8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,
but the prayer of the upright is acceptable to him.
9 The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,
but he loves him who pursues righteousness.
10 There is severe discipline for him who forsakes the way;
whoever hates reproof will die.
11 Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the Lord;
how much more the hearts of the children of man!
12 A scoffer does not like to be reproved;
he will not go to the wise.
13 A glad heart makes a cheerful face,
but by sorrow of heart the spirit is crushed.
14 The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge,
but the mouths of fools feed on folly.
15 All the days of the afflicted are evil,
but the cheerful of heart has a continual feast.
16 Better is a little with the fear of the Lord
than great treasure and trouble with it.
17 Better is a dinner of herbs where love is
than a fattened ox and hatred with it.
18 A hot-tempered man stirs up strife,
but he who is slow to anger quiets contention.
19 The way of a sluggard is like a hedge of thorns,
but the path of the upright is a level highway.
20 A wise son makes a glad father,
but a foolish man despises his mother.
21 Folly is a joy to him who lacks sense,
but a man of understanding walks straight ahead.
22 Without counsel plans fail,
but with many advisers they succeed.
23 To make an apt answer is a joy to a man,
and a word in season, how good it is!
24 The path of life leads upward for the prudent,
that he may turn away from Sheol beneath.
25 The Lord tears down the house of the proud
but maintains the widow's boundaries.
26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord,
but gracious words are pure.
27 Whoever is greedy for unjust gain troubles his own household,
but he who hates bribes will live.
28 The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer,
but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things.
29 The Lord is far from the wicked,
but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
30 The light of the eyes rejoices the heart,
and good news refreshes the bones.
31 The ear that listens to life-giving reproof
will dwell among the wise.
32 Whoever ignores instruction despises himself,
but he who listens to reproof gains intelligence.
33 The fear of the Lord is instruction in wisdom,
and humility comes before honor.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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bookworm wrote,
proof that agw is a religion
No. This is proof of what some washed up actor thinks.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
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i was speaking of 'enlightenment' in the spiritual sense (i.e. like buddha)
and i never claimed atheists can't be smart or wise...i'm a big fan of christopher hitchens
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jstan
climber
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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Way to go Jennie!
My props.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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Dr. F.-
People who know what they're doing in any field do not feel the need to brag about it. Of course they talk about the various stages and experiences with their advanced followers, and have been known to talk about what enlightenment is like and how they achieved it in their biographies. They don't broadcast it to the world because the world doesn't understand and ridicules what it doesn't understand. As Jesus so colorfully put it, "don't cast your pearls before swine".
Meanwhile, the people around them with any sensitivity, can tell that they're way beyond the average person.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
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bookworm
i was speaking of 'enlightenment' in the spiritual sense (i.e. like buddha)
I got that, however I still believe you are mistaken in your a*#umptions and conclusions.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
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Rokjox, I wouldn't even call that healthy. Acceptance of others beliefs and ideals is likely a (actually) healthy response to those others beliefs
Do not confuse skepticism with being cynical. For my part, I tend to be accepting of what others believe. They can do what they wish. We can debate and get along. I actually get great enjoyment from the companionship and discussions I've had with my religious friends. I trust the feeling if mutual.
You will not manage to be enlightened as long as you are worrying about what somebody else believes.
This is not necessarily a condition of being atheist or agnostic. It is true many atheist do worry about it, especially where religion intersects public policy and international relations, however many do not bother.
I guess I'm bothered with the assumtion that atheists lack or are incapable of having any spiritualness or "deeper" thinking. To many we're just a bunch of science driven soul-less complainers.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Rokjox,Here you are quibbling over whether people have "soul" and what it might actually be... Thats baggage.
It's baggage bookworm brought to the terminal. I was trying to point out to him that his arguements may have been specious. I was not giving what I thought it to mean. Far from quibbling, I was trying to present alternative views that may be just as viable as his own.
Would you rather be happy, or "right"?
I'm happy that I've never claimed to be right on anything.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 15, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Rokjox, oh, and spending time quoting dictionaries and arguing over the definition of "enlightenment" is definitely not enlightened or enlightening. The definition was not necessarily construed as having a purpose in the discussion we are having. And it was not necessarily written by an enlightened lexicographer.
I admitted as much, that it was only a dictionary reference. However I will argue the meaning of enlightenment when the definition bookworm (or anyone) is concocting precludes athiests (and by extension - me) from ever achieving it. And you will note it was directed at bookworm's comments and not anything you have said.
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