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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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A lot of countries have a higher murder rate than we enjoy here in the U.S. In fact, most countries suffer a higher per-capita murder rate. Even Greenland has a higher per-capita murder rate than the U.S. But not one of those countries has a higher rate of gun ownership. None are even close. Less murders, yet more guns. THAT'S American Exceptionalism right there.
Chaz, your post is a great example of statistical silliness. The latest data I've seen (for 2012) does indeed show that 109 countries have a higher murder rate than the US. So, when you say "a lot of countries have a higher murder rate than we enjoy here in the U.S.", you're quite correct.
But there are a couple of things your comment ignores.
First, while it's true that 109 countries have a higher murder rate than the US, there are 110 countries with a lower rate.
And second, if you look at the list of countries with a higher rate, you won't find any that you really want to live in. Seriously. In terms of murder rate, the US is in the company of what our beloved Ron Anderson would call third-world shytholes. The countries in which a sane person would want to live -- you know, first-world countries with thriving economies -- all have lower rates.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 10, 2014 - 07:03am PT
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a Nation of obnoxious, anti-social ass-holes
That's a pretty accurate summation there.
And madbolter, if you think everyone's cool with you carrying a weapon around, you're living in denial, my friend.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 10, 2014 - 07:44am PT
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I grew up in the shadow of the bomb. We had two drills at school. One was for tornadoes, for that one we went into the hallways. The other was for the Bomb.
Despite that, I still think MAD is mad.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 10, 2014 - 08:53am PT
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edit: @ Ghost,, which country just lowered the age for WORKERS to 10???
Georgia? That was one of Gingrich's ideas, wasn't it?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 10, 2014 - 09:43am PT
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Madbolter your belief that background checks don't help keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people (at least some of them who would go on to commit violence with them) defies reason and common sense.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 10, 2014 - 09:49am PT
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Background checks don't keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people in California.
California has all kinds of background checks, yet criminals here have no problem at all getting their hands on guns.
Background checks serve mainly to cover the asses of the gun shop and the gun manufacturers.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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Jul 10, 2014 - 09:59am PT
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Mind boggling...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2014 - 10:23am PT
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And madbolter, if you think everyone's cool with you carrying a weapon around, you're living in denial, my friend.
I'm not saying or thinking "everyone's cool" with it. I am saying that in Colorado people are not awash in a sea of irrational fear over it.
Big difference!
The US is a nation in which we practice tolerance toward each other regarding all sorts of things we "don't like" but that we recognize as legitimate values in others. We are value-tolerant, and Colorado is a good example of that attitude played out regarding open carry of handguns.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2014 - 10:25am PT
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Madbolter your belief that background checks don't help keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people (at least some of them who would go on to commit violence with them) defies reason and common sense.
Well, with "at least some," you've got me.
One, perhaps? A couple? A few?
Is it statistically significant? That is the real question. And given the grand experiments of states like California, and places like Chicago and DC, it is FAR from "defying reason and common sense" to question the statistically-demonstrated efficacy of such laws!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 10, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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I'm sorry, but I don't want to create a society where some people feel more empowered by carrying a fire arm with them everywhere they go. This changes the whole dynamic when armed and unarmed people interact. It almost forces everyone to carry a gun to have parity. That just sucks.
I am sure the NRA would love to sell just about everyone a gun and ammunition for the rest of their lives (however short), but this starts a cascade of events that will definitely lead to more gun related deaths than saved lives. A lot more. The more people see carrying guns as one of the answers to our societal issues, the worse things will get.
I have no problem with responsible gun ownership, but the notion that everyone should start going around healed like the wild west in order to avoid a government takeover, personal harm, stop gun related crime or foil mass gun murders is a self-fulfilling prophecy and just plain looney. And now you have some posters here gloating over turning other peoples heads to mist with their firepower. I hope it is just a classless troll, otherwise it is pretty sick.
End of Rant
You may now call me commie, hippie, pacifist, liberal pussy or whatever else floats your boat.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2014 - 11:13am PT
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Of course, then you'll go on to argue: "Perhaps it is difficult to demonstrate the effect statistically, but a BIG part of the problem is interstate gun flow, which is why we need UNIVERSAL background checks, and only the feds can really administrate such a thing."
And I'll respond, "Ahh, so you DO want to see another 'war on...' fully fired up, with all of the useless expense that we've seen along with the feds administrating border control, prohibition, drugs...."
And you'll respond with something like, "Well, if it can reduce the violence even a little, isn't that a good thing? Isn't that OBVIOUSLY a good thing?"
And I'll respond with: "As I said above, it's all about (no pun intended) 'bang for the buck.' As a nation we already DO NOT throw our money and resources at ALL SORTS of other causes that would have FAR more of a needless-death-reduction effect than even 100%-effective gun-control."
And we're like dogs chasing our tails in this argument. SOMEHOW, the relatively small amount of gun violence in a nation of almost a-third-of-a-billion people gets some all up in a froth. It doesn't me.
Each particular tragedy IS a tragedy, and I'm not minimizing that in the slightest, except to say that each incident is not a NATIONAL tragedy. If you want to look for NATIONAL tragedies, you could start with our almost-entirely-preventable rate of death by heart disease. Now THAT truly is a "national epidemic." But, no, that's not sexy enough, and the media outlets don't have a politically-laden hobby-horse to ride on that subject.
How about this for your "universal gun control?"
BITD in San Berdo, I could trivially (and I mean TRIVIALLY) lay my hands on just about any sort of weaponry you care to shake a stick at. Grenade launcher? NP. Full-auto anything? NP. Tear gas? NP. (I actually had several canisters myself). All military items, such as claymores? NP.
And this stuff was not expensive!
Now, please explain to me how such utterly LOCKED DOWN weaponry was so TRIVIALLY available to a guy like me.
Can you really float the idea that even "universal background checks" are going to be CLOSE to as efficacious as the laws that have always existed to keep such military-grade weaponry away from a guy like me?
These laws DON'T WORK! Period! And your idea that there is going to be even a statistically significant "reduction" in access is what "defies reason and common sense."
If you REALLY want to "solve" the problem, address it at its source! The problem is not guns (as hundreds of millions of them in this country clearly demonstrate!). The problem is criminals! Solve the crime problem, and you solve the "gun problem."
HOW?
Very simple: Make these countless victimless "crimes" not crimes anymore.
Prostitution, drugs, gambling, etc. What's the problem with these? Ohhh... we don't want to live in a society filled with degenerates? Is that it?
We ALREADY DO! The "war on..." ALL of these things is a dismal, expensive, jail-filling failure!
I used to know a professor at Cal. State San Bernardino that was a heroin addict. He was a fully-functional and very productive member of society. To all outward appearances he was completely "normal." But he had to shoot up twice a day. He actually liked it, despite the fact that he was, even by admission, addicted. But he got genuine pleasure from it. HIS values, not mine. But in a free society, not hurting anybody, he has the RIGHT to his values.
We used to talk about how stupid and utterly ineffectual the drug laws are. Did his heroin cost any more because it was "black market?" Probably not, compared to, say, LEGAL cigarettes. ALL these laws accomplished in his case was to ensure that his money helped fund some drug cartel somewhere.
And do you really think that by making guns "more expensive" you will even SLOW the flow? Think again! These gangs, criminals, and cartels are NOT hurting for money!
Want to MAKE them hurt for money???
Legalize the vices that fund them.
Nobody wants to get SERIOUS about addressing the "gun problem," which really is the CRIME problem, BY addressing the FACT that most of these "crimes" that fill our jails (in revolving door fashion) are NOT actually things that should be crimes in a free society!
Our society is wildly schizophrenic, as we froth about this or that petty "issue" and refuse to get serious about the BIG issues that underlie the relatively petty symptoms. We make all sorts of MORAL value judgments, and we are entirely inconsistent in our thinking about them!
Gays are good. Drugs are bad.
Cigarettes are good. Prostitution is bad.
Alcohol is good. Guns are bad.
On and on and on.
This society was NEVER supposed to be "moral" by this or that group's particular set of values! It was supposed to be FREE, and that means simply not stomping on the toes of those around you as you seek YOUR set of preferred values.
You think prostitution is evil? Then don't go to one.
You think gays are evil? Then don't be gay (lol).
You think gay marriage is evil? Then don't go to the wedding.
You think drugs are evil? Then don't use them, and teach your kids to not use them.
On and on.
If this nation would get over its endless penchant for attempting to LEGISLATE MORALITY, and instead do what this nation was intended to do, which is nothing more than design laws strictly to protect against rights violations, then our jails would almost empty, and we would have vast sums of money and resources to devote to better things!
Such as education, for example.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 10, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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"BITD in San Berdo, I could trivially (and I mean TRIVIALLY) lay my hands on just about any sort of weaponry you care to shake a stick at."
The County Sheriff himself was convicted of illegal gun trafficking.
Not the sheriff back in the Mormon period, but the last sheriff.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2014 - 11:32am PT
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I'm sorry, but I don't want to create a society where some people feel more empowered by carrying a fire arm with them everywhere they go. This changes the whole dynamic when armed and unarmed people interact. It almost forces everyone to carry a gun to have parity. That just sucks.
I'm sorry, but that's just a ridiculous set of statements!
"Have parity?"
WHAT are you intending to DO that causes you to "need parity?"
If you don't mess with me in deadly fashion, then you already HAVE parity with ME whether or not you are armed! My being armed is IRRELEVANT to you, IF you are a decent human being!
"Feel more empowered?"
Back to FEELINGS, which has nothing to do with it.
You are perfectly safe around me, whether either of us is packing or not, unless you threaten my life, property, or the lives or limbs of my family. If you do that, then you DO have to be concerned with "parity."
Otherwise, quit whining.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 10, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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I'm not saying or thinking "everyone's cool" with it. I am saying that in Colorado people are not awash in a sea of irrational fear over it.
It sure sounds like they are awash in a sea of fear to me.
I used to know several guys who were competition shooters. Good guys, but when they got together to shoot the breeze, so to speak, they'd get into these conversations where they'd be hoping for someone to f*#k with them so they could draw down on them. They really wanted it to happen. Seemed f*#ked up to me.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 10, 2014 - 11:41am PT
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How would I know I am safe around you? Because you say so?
Pffttt.
On the postive side, Open carry at least let's someone know they are dealing with whacko right off.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2014 - 11:42am PT
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They really wanted it to happen. Seemed f*#ked up to me.
So, because you knew a couple of guys like this, that is a fair representation of all gun-carriers?
Seems f*#ked up to me.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 10, 2014 - 11:46am PT
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It was a pretty good sample, and it was 100%. One of them almost shot a kid in the back for shoplifting a motorcycle part, thank the flying spaghetti monster he came to his senses.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 10, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
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I'm not saying or thinking "everyone's cool" with it. I am saying that in Colorado people are not awash in a sea of irrational fear over it.
It sure sounds like they are awash in a sea of fear to me.
I used to know several guys who were competition shooters. Good guys, but when they got together to shoot the breeze, so to speak, they'd get into these conversations where they'd be hoping for someone to f*#k with them so they could draw down on them. They really wanted it to happen. Seemed f*#ked up to me.
Anyone looking for violence is f*#ked up... After decades around firearms the last thing I'd ever want is to be on the other end of one since I know the realities of that...
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A5scott
Trad climber
Chicago
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Jul 10, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
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There are between 100 to 120 million gun owners in the US. There are more than 11 million CCW holders. If they are as violent as they are being portrayed, there would be millions of shootings every year.
here is an NPR story with a CDC report showing that murders with firearms have dropped by 49% over the last 20 years. In that same 20 years violent crime involving firearms has dropped by 75%
not epidemic, and going in the right direction, though it can and hopefully will improve. It's also well known that about 75% of those crimes are committed by gangs and drug trade types. Career criminals with zero regard for any law let alone care about human life.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/05/07/181998015/rate-of-u-s-gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-says
here is a link to stats from the Texas Department of Safety
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm
it compares the conviction rate of CCW holder vs non CCW holders. or gun nuts Vs non gun nuts
here is a link to 2012: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2012.pdf
it shows in 2012: total convictions: 63,272
2012 total CCW holder convictions: 120
in 2011 total convictions 63,679
total CCW convictions 120
for 2010: total convictions: 73,914
total CCW convictions 121
for 2009: total convictions 65,561
total ccw convictions 101
About 15% of those CCW convictions are the type where they carried into a building or place they shouldn't have, with no intent to harm.
Is that pretty clear evidence that CCW holders are not committing anywhere near the bulk of crimes? well 96 and 97 weren't great years for texas. CCW holders committed about 150 of the 35,000 criminal convictions.
Why is the CCW crime rate low? because they don't want to give the gov any reason whatsoever to strip their rights and property. No alcohol, no speeding more than 5 mph above the limit, etc... anything to keep a low profile and go about their day
As for scrubbing bubbles fender bender, if anybody uses a gun to gain leverage, that's called brandishing, and it's illegal. all anybody needs to do is call the police, which in a fender bender, they are probably en route anyway.
in fact, looking at these statistics, the police are more likely to shoot you than a CCW is.
I don't worry much about anything, but worry more about a government that wants to kill millions, than a psycho that wants to kill me. I'm NOT talking about now or this current gov. I have history to tell me that in the last 100 years, governments have starved and slaughtered and mutilated more than 100 million of it's own citizens
china: 45-60 million dead
russia: 20-40 million
germany :10 million plus 20 million in the war worldwide
that's 3 countries in a short time, about 100 million dead.
the number 1 reason for the 2nd Amendment is to defend against tyranny. The 2nd reason was what that bearded navy seal in the video a few replies back was acknowledging... the right to self defense, and the right to defend oneself with modern weapons.
Nobody is advocating carrying machine guns, or is even carrying machine guns. Pretty much the cheapest machine gun is $5,000 and up to $100K or more. That plus the life sentence attached to crimes with machine guns. and other reasons
99.99% of the 11 million plus and growing don't take carrying lightly. It's not an easy decision to carry a firearm. Not near as casual as it's made out to be.
scott
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SuperTopo on the Web
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some of the gun nuts have to watch this piece of gun story
Let us know!