Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
|
"And that you choose to hate Him is prophetic!"
Sounds very prophetic, but consider a prophesy I will here make.
Tomorrow will be a THURSDAY.
A prophesy is remarkable only when the chance of guessing it is low.
People are hated by name and in christ's line of work at that time this prophesy was no prophesy at all.
Every year or so the end times have been prophesied. That prophesy has a special twist in that it can never be shown correct on earth. No one will be left to celebrate its accuracy.
That one is an apriori loser, and proves to be so all the time.
You don't even have to invoke statistical analysis.
On Intelligence:
As a quantifiable parameter intelligence has a dynamic range that extends over one hundred orders of magnitude. And it exists in a space with a million-fold dimensionality. I am very nervous about arguments based upon gauging intelligence. Jan's argument that aetheists tend to think things through and tend to take responsibility for their decisions I think has support and indeed I myself have made the responsibility argument.
I don't think we should blame invisible rabbits for our bad decisions.
Indeed, I have not been able to find a rabbit that would take that job. You get no appreciation in that line of work.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 12:08am PT
|
As a quantifiable parameter intelligence has a dynamic range that extends over one hundred orders of magnitude. And it exists in a space with a million-fold dimensionality.
At least.
The Policeman's Beard is Half Constructed
prose and poetry by Racter
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 12:29am PT
|
jstan- "...in that it can never be shown to be correct on earth. No one will be left to celebrate it's accuracy."
False!
Many will be left.
That is the reason Christ returns, to intervene in a world about to wipe out the human race(and all the critters)with a nuclear war.
There will be many left, at least a billion people alive! At least 1/3 of the current population of the world.
And all of the Jewish Nation of Israel will have long since(half way threw the Tribulation)fled Jerusalem for the hills of Petra.
And how about the Miracle that is Israel??
A handful of people being spread throughout the world(as prophesied). Only to return after 1900 + years(as prophesied)!!
To be never driven from their homeland again.
And how about the miracle that was the Seven Day War?
"For whom shall bless Israel, shall be blessed, and for whom shall curse Israel, shall be cursed."(my paraphrase).
Better take heed Iran!!!
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 12:57am PT
|
"What if:: The humans didn't discover God yet, no one thought there was a God, it wasn't even discussed."
Now who's playing a top down god, changing the past? Horse pucky, you can't take God out, He has always been, you can say you don't want to believe in Him, that He is not, but good luck with that, you can deny all you want, that's your choice!
Proverbs 14:9, Fools mock at the guilt offering,
but the upright enjoy acceptance.
Proverbs 14:12, There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.
Proverbs 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways,
and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways
The Fool Says, There Is No God
To the choirmaster. Of David.
Psalms 14, The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good, not even one.
Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the Lord?
There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.
You would shame the plans of the poor,
but the Lord is his refuge.
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 01:01am PT
|
777, it's amusing you consider hatred for Pat Robertson to be fulfilling prophecy.
Do you really think he is a Christian?
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 01:11am PT
|
monolith!
My post was in reply to weschrist post that read in its entirety... "I sure do hate those Christians."
Has nothing to do with Pat R....other than he claims to be a Christian.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 09:33am PT
|
The handful of atheists in America? Jan, you have got to be kidding.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 10:46am PT
|
eeyonkee-
I decided to check on numbers of atheists in America and was quite surprised at what I found.
About.com says that 12% of Americans are atheists.
http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/12/02/how-many-atheists-in-america.htm
This surprised me as I work in academia where the percentage, especially if we add in agnostics, is much higher, usually the majority, but I would have guessed 5% or less for the country as a whole.
I was also startled to learn of the prejudice against atheists which I assumed to exist only among religious fundamentalists. Unfortunately that is not the case, which also helps explain the vehemence of some of the opinions expressed around here.
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheitsHated.htm
A lot to think about.
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 11:38am PT
|
judging christians or christianity by pat robertson's example is like judging austrians by hitler's example:
Pat Robertson’s Offense [Peter Wehner]
Sometimes in the midst of a tragedy like the one we have witnessed in Haiti we see acts of enormous compassion and sacrifice. Other times we hear words that are wholly inappropriate and offensive, not to mention just plain wacky. Such is the case (yet again) with the Reverend Pat Robertson. Yesterday, on The 700 Club, Robertson said this:
Something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it. They were under the heel of the French . . . and they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, "We will serve you if you'll get us free from the French." True story. And so the devil said, "OK, it's a deal." . . . Ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after another, desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is one island. It's cut down the middle. On the one side is Haiti; on the other side is the Dominican Republic. Dominican Republic is, is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, et cetera. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island.
In other words, the earthquake is God’s judgment on Haiti for its sinful 18th-century pact with the Devil.
Set aside the fact that this “true story” is based on a legend. Set aside, too, the arbitrary foolishness of Robertson’s statement (why would God lash out at Haiti but not at Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, or secular Europe?). And set aside the hardness of heart that would lead a man, at this moment, to see human misery on such a mass scale and blame an impoverished nation for bringing upon itself the judgment of the Almighty.
There is another important issue involved here, which is a warped and confused theology Robertson has employed before. For example, Robertson agreed with Jerry Falwell that on 9/11 God lifted the “curtain” and allowed the enemies of America to give us “probably what we deserve”; and in 1998 he warned after Orlando city officials voted to fly rainbow flags from city lampposts during an annual Gay Day event at Disney World, “I don’t think I’d be waving those flags in God’s face if I were you. . . . [A] condition like this will bring about the destruction of your nation. It’ll bring about terrorist bombs, it’ll bring earthquakes, tornadoes, and possibly a meteor.”
Pat Robertson’s argument is as neat and clean as a mathematical equation: God grants blessings and curses on nations and people based on their allegiance and obedience to Him. If things are going well, you’re living right; if things are going badly, you’re living wrong. And it is Robertson himself who can divine the hierarchy of sins that most trouble God.
But this view simply does not correspond with any serious understanding of Christianity. After all, the most important symbol in Christianity is the Cross, which represents suffering, agony, and death. When Jesus spoke to Ananias, who was instrumental in the conversion of the Apostle Paul, Ananias was told, “I will show [Paul] how much he must suffer for my name.” Christ Himself warned His disciples that they would suffer for His sake; most of them were martyred for their faith. The Apostle Peter speaks about the suffering that Christians will endure for doing good. And in the book of Romans we read that we are to rejoice in our suffering because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance produces character; and character produces hope. On and on it goes.
Malcolm Muggeridge was once asked what he thought was going on at Calvary. Muggeridge answered this way:
I think that men had to be shown that the way to revelation was through suffering, not, as they may have been inclined to think, that the way was through happiness. A great image revelatory of this was absolutely essential. They had also to be shown that what they must worship is, in earthly terms, defeat, not, as they thought, victory; that they must worship what in earthly terms is weak, not what has hitherto been thought of as strength; that this image of a man dying because of the truth that he embodied, established forever what truth is — something you die for. . . .
All we can say is that [suffering] is part of the experience of living, and, like all other parts, it can shed light or it can shed darkness. Suffering is an essential element in the Christian religion, as it is in life. After all, the Cross itself is the supreme example.
Compare these wise and penetrating words with Robertson’s offensive and ignorant ones.
I fully realize that Robertson long ago ceased being a serious figure in the eyes of many people. Still, he remains a person of some influence, an individual who ran for president, whose words still garner attention, and whose views reflect a strand of thought within Christendom. So when he speaks out like he did yesterday, his words and theology need to be challenged.
Unlike Pat Robertson, I don’t pretend to understand how and why God acts in this world. Christians must reconcile their belief in the incarnation and their conviction that Jesus cares deeply for us and is involved in the affairs of man with suffering and tragedy writ small and writ large. It isn’t an easy thing to come to grips with; sloganeering and nice, tidy explanations melt when confronted with the pain of life. Even C. S. Lewis, a monumental figure in 20th-century Christianity, saw his faith buckle for a time after the death of his wife Joy (Lewis eventually recovered his faith, though he was clearly a different man).
What the Christian faith teaches us is that even in suffering there can be redemption; that this world, for all of its joys and sorrows, is not our home; and that at the end of our pilgrimage, beyond the sufferings of this world, there are streams of mercy, never ceasing. This may not be the gospel according to Robertson; it is, though, the story of faith according to Jesus.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
|
Amazing how Pat Robertson is able to stir up a hornet's nest. Once again we have every person having the freedom to decide who is a "real" christian and who isn't. Then blindly ignoring the fact this means the word has no meaning whatsoever.
But, if Jan's data is right, christianity does give people the freedom to hate some other group. Again a group each person is able to define for themselves. Where does this stop? Is christianity just a convenient cover for bigotry? Why do we need a cover for bigotry? If we are ashamed of our bigotry, why are we ashamed? Or is it we just worry that we ourselves will become a target? In some places and some times bigotry covered by devout belief allowed you to stone people to death. So I guess there is something to be "ashamed" about. A lot actually.
Apparently even unto today.
Jan's data also suggests devout belief anticorrelates with education. That I can believe. No, Wrong word. Sorry. That I can UNDERSTAND. (Correlation does not require mutual exclusion so no need for anyone to extrapolate what I have said.)
And we even have a person complaining about something a christian has said and drawing a comparison to Hitler. Very suggestive that such extreme depth had to be plumbed in order to get a comparison. Anything less than Hitler is apparently alright?
I would suggest people in congregations across the country and world need to stand up Sunday to say something is very wrong when those of us who claim to admire a reasoned peacemaker like jesus support ignorance and hatred. None of us are willing to say it is clear we are not following our teacher.
None say we are not following our teacher.
None say we are blasphemers.
Jesus was bloody courageous. Perhaps it is just too hard to actually follow his example.
But we like to pretend.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
|
weschrist!
FWIW, I have stated many times here that I thought it was not wise, and that I was against the Iraq war/invasion from it's conception, as were many Christians including P.R who stated such over and over again on air(700 club) I do concur that it was a dumb thing for Pat R. to exclaim what he did in regards to Haiti...I follow Jesus Christ not some mere man!
wes= "Uh, yea, how's that working out for them?"
The verse in regards to Jeremiah 23:6, is referring to when JC will return and set up His millennial Kingdom. Untel then It will continue to face oppression! Then and only then will they have peace.
Uh, yea, it is working out just as prophesied...you guys realy outta do a little Bible research/study before you start spray-in! Just say-in!!
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
|
"And we even have a person complaining about something a christian has said and drawing a comparison to Hitler. Very suggestive that such extreme depth had to be plumbed in order to get a comparison. Anything less than Hitler is apparently alright?"
read carefully...i wasn't comparing robertson to hitler or christians to austrians
i was making a point about prejudice and bigotry...people who decry christianity point to the worst of behavior committed by HUMANS who call themselves christians...following this logic, i could just as reasonably say, "austrians are a bunch of jew hating nazis" or "liberals are a bunch of american military hating, hamas sympathizing, media attention craving code pinkers" or "pga players are a bunch of wife cheating a**holes" or "nba players are a bunch of gun toting idiots"
and "christian" very much has a meaning, which i think is very clear even to a non-christian like me:
"god so LOVED the world that he gave his only begotten son..."
still don't like my comparison? how about a contrast:
whenever somebody calling himself a christian kills an abortion doctor or makes a clearly offensive statement about the suffering of thousands of innocent haitians, you put the fault immediately, precisely, and completely on their proclaimed religion...but when somebody calling himself a muslim and even producing a videotape justifying his actions with the Quran straps a bomb to his chest and walks into an ICE CREAM PARLOR crowded with children and senior citizens or fills a car with explosives and tracks down a GROUP OF GIRLS walking to school or flies a plane full of innocent civilians into buildings filled with innocent civilians, you put the fault on "american imperialism" or "poverty" or "pre-post traumatic stress syndrome"
excusing jihadis' (despite their videotaped admissions) acts of murder is like excusing tiger woods by saying, "it must have just slipped out" or "he was raped" or "he just had too much money"
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 02:14pm PT
|
wes- "I hate many Christians, especially ones like you."
What do you know of me?? Or what I have accomplished?? Or of the thousands of kids, and homeless and in need that I have reached out to? To feed and cloth and help financially etc., most of whom were abandoned and on the streets/barely surviving! The years since I have turned my life to Christ. I gave everything I had for a period of five years, working with the street kids in Hollywood and LA. At that time 1985-92, there were over 10,000 run-away, abandoned, and abused kids on the streets of LA/Hollywood. Ranging in age from 12-18.
You already accused me falsely of being in favor of an injustice war etc. etc.!
You know little about me. And I could care less!!
EDIT: I would just like to ad that I have no animosity towards you weschrist, or any so called atheist, agnostic, or any other 'religion' etc. I just feel as though that if we are capable of getting along on a wall or in some other environment, we should be able to show each other a modicum of respect here!
Sorry wes...as I look back at what you said about "hating Christians"! I didn't mean to say that you hate Jesus Christ, I was wrong! I am glad that you don't. And I agree, many of us are pathetic hypocrites.
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
|
this is what i use to keep out the christians:
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
|
Religious Right leader defends Robertson's Haiti comment
By Bob Allen
Thursday, January 14, 2010
VISTA, Calif. (ABP) -- As several religious leaders criticized Pat Robertson's comments blaming Haiti's massive Jan. 12 earthquake on a pact supposedly made by its people with the devil, one came out to defend him.
Gary Cass, chairman and CEO of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission, issued a statement saying that while Robertson's comments made him an "easy target" for criticism, they are essentially theologically sound.
Cass, who before taking his current job in 2007 worked three years as executive director of the Center for Reclaiming America for Christ, an outreach of the late D. James Kennedy's Coral Ridge Ministries, said the Bible talks of connections between historical realities and spiritual influences when it uses the terms "blessing or cursing."
Gary Cass is president and CEO of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission.
Cass said the majority of Americans believe in moral causality. Eastern religious call it "karma," while Christians call it "God's providence." In that regard, he said, Robertson's comments were "well within the bounds of historic Christian theology."
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/4728/53/
|
|
Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
|
OK. I see yet another English word has been drawn underneath the christian cape, and can no longer be used. The brain evolved.....
Not sure where christian comes from, but I think we all use information to form our beliefs.
Designed, evolved - in response to what? There's a question that we don't have the information to answer, so we form beliefs based on what we have. We're pretty good at telling the difference between a 1 and 2 chance and a 1 and 100 chance, not so good telling the difference between a 1 in billion chance and 1 in 100 billion chance.
Do we believe that reality is rational, or do we define rational based on what reality is? I think it's a stretch to come to the conclusion that reality is irrational - that it's wrong for people to hold irrational beliefs - but that's what we do with our incomplete information.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
|
You're not enlightened. Only a bogus rascal claims he's enlightened.
You're in deep darkness.
Enlightenment is not something cheap ......
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
|
Hey! That's a repost! From paganmonkeyboy's thread. That's not enlightened
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
|
near enough
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
|
Dr. F-
There are many enlightened people on this planet. However, part of being enlightened is that you don't go around bragging about it. When the Dalai Lama says he is a simple Buddhist monk for example, he's really just being modest since he is the best known example today, of a person who is enlightened. There are over 300 other tulkus in Tibetan culture at the moment who are also at that level, and countless others who live in obscurity in caves and villages across the Himalaya.
In India, no one knows how many there might be, but thousands would be a good guess from the number of renunciants and retreat centers and the amount of time and attention dedicated to the quest. I am sure that Karl would say the guru he studies under is just one of them. Almost any well known guru has achieved that status including Shivananda, Ramana Maharshi, Ramakrishna, and Aurobindo in the past and Guru Mai and Prabhupada currently. Some have visited America such as Vivekenanda, the founder of the Vedanta Society, Prabhupada of Krishna Consciousness, and Paramhansa Yogananda, whom both Karl and I have recommended since he published many books in English including the first yogic explanation of the deeper meanings of Christianity. Yogananda founded Self Realization Fellowship and several of his followers have also founded centers. Chogyam Trungpa in Boulder was one and Tarthang Tulku of Berkeley and Sonoma are others. Many Zen and Taoist masters as well.
The history of Hassidic Judaism has many, as do the Sufis of Islam. In Christianity, there is a whole long list of Christian saints who fit the bill, Mother Theresa being a recent example. Beyond that, there are many holy people in all of these religions who have made it that stage. Jim Marion and Bernadette Roberts are two modern Americans who have written about it.
Meanwhile, I think your doubt maybe comes from not knowing what it actually means. An enlightened person is not necessarily a genius though many are, but generally they are not free of political or scientific errors. Some are recognized for their psychic powers, others do not have them or do not show them.
An enlightened person is one who is free of all ego and self will, a person without karma or sin. They may make mistakes but never from a selfish egoistic motivation. They are all people who have dedicated their life either to understanding God better and passing that along or merely to showing God through their service to their fellow humans. Blame or fame, wealth or poverty is irrelevant to them. They simply serve.What makes them enlightened is that they have passed through a specific set of internal mental experiences and revelations which are well known in mystic circles.
Meanwhile, for a second opinion, consult Karl and Werner.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!