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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 13, 2010 - 08:36am PT
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Why did we invent gods?
Psalm 100:3 Know that the Lord, he is God! It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
If there is no God, than everything is our fault or natures!
If there is, God calls it sin!
God through Jesus, forgives us of are sins, when we ask Him!
As a rule a man's a fool,
when it's hot he wants it cool,
when it's cool he wants it hot,
always wanting what is not!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Psalms 13:5-6, But I have trusted in your steadfast love;
my heart shall rejoice in your salvation.
I will sing to the Lord,
because he has dealt bountifully with me.
Proverbs 13:14, The teaching of the wise is a fountain of life,
that one may turn away from the snares of death.
Gainer Maynard?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 13, 2010 - 09:01am PT
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Jan wrote. If the average human being had no concept of a God they would go on living their lives at the level of animals, wasting their big brains and wondering why their lives were so meaningless. They would compensate if they were males by gratuitous violence and if females by making themselves attractive to the most violent males for protection, getting beaten up and raped a few times along the way. Everyone would take a lot of drugs to get through the day.
Their desire for something greater than themselves would be projected onto other human beings who would then gain political power at the expense of everyone, but if they were good looking, successful, and owned a lot of material goods, they would be excused anyway.The average human without God to inspire them and an ideal to strive to be the best possible human, trusting that there is some justice somewhere in this universe, ends up worshipping other human beings, ranging from steroid pumped athletes to mindless movie stars to dictators. Such a person would behave in other words, pretty much like the average secular bozo today.
While the educated elite of modern societies can construct a middle class existence without God or meaning other than just surviving 80 years on a planet in the middle of nowhere, avoiding of course past mistakes with secular experimentation like Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, and only taking some drugs but not too many, constructing their meaning around their careers and professional advancement, at least until they reach retirement age, the average Joe Schmoe can't do that, let alone the 70% of the people on this planet who live in Third World conditions.
Jan, there are so many revealing things in this post about how you feel about the non-religious, one has to wonder, why all the hate?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 09:12am PT
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bc-
I think you mistake satire and irony for hatred???
I don't hate anyone and I certainly don't base my opinion of someone on whether they are religious or not.
However, it seems to me by your reply, that in fact the religionists have succeeded in making literalists out of everyone, even those who are not religious?!
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 13, 2010 - 09:28am PT
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Exactly how is that supposed to read as satire? It flows pretty much like your other "serious" posts and it leads into your next post about G. Bush and karma. And now you're using your reply to me to make another jab that we're all literalists. More satire?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 09:40am PT
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I suppose if you continue on and read my post about cause and effect in Nepal you will then conclude that I "hate" Nepalese?
You know hate is a pretty strong word. I equate it with things like riots and murder and wars.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 13, 2010 - 09:54am PT
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No, you said nothing disparaging about the Nepalese. Was that supposed to be satire? I thought it was a story illustrating the Nepalese way of thinking regarding cause and effect. You reserved violent drugged out rapist bozos devoid of meaning for us. Ok, how about "distain" or "animosity" then. Whatever Jan, if you say it was satire, I'll believe you.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:01am PT
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I would have thought you would identify rather with the educated elite of modern societies who construct a middle class existence without God?
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:10am PT
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Where I align myself is not the issue. Not sure what you're getting at here. More distain?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:30am PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:38am PT
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Thanks Cintune!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 13, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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"The Buddha said, "All life is sorrowful." His gift is the ability to escape birth into this world!"
or
"Buddha's real gift was to show the way out of suffering while in this very life and body."
Either way he saw the world as flawed, a place of suffering in much the same way that Christians, Muslims and Jews see it. The revelation of nearly all theologies is that existence is flawed and through right practice there is escape.
My point is that it's time for humanity to abandon these primitive theologies for the reality that life is what it is and we should grab hold of it celebrate it in all its awfulness and create a world that realizes the great potential within.
With all its pathetic faults, humanity does aspire to the best it can be in spite of the obstacles presented by the necessity of survival. The invention of god, like the development of the wheel, stands as a great human achievement.
A greater achievement will be humanity's separation from that invention, when we as human beings are finally able to stand alone in the unthinkable space of our existence and declare the greatness of our potential and make that potential a practical fact.
It is unfortunate, difficult and uncomfortable but "god" stands in the way of humanity's potential, its greatest triumph.
All religion describes nature and existence as cursed or sorrowful, man as fallible and sinful.
All religion places the blame for evil on the acts of man.
How incredibly strange and hard to believe!
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 13, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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Whether correct or not let me posit that somehow we are genetically designed to expect that rationality guides events.
What do you call the designer? Seems like that's a big part of our belief in god.
I think that most of what we call irrationality is really misunderstanding (based on insufficient information), which I guess is evidence to support your point above.
I think that what's in our genes is affected by what's in the environment. We can accomplish more together than separately - it's advantageous to be good. Our belief in rationality is also maybe a reflection of reality's rationality.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 13, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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OK. I see yet another English word has been drawn underneath the christian cape, and can no longer be used. The brain evolved.......
Would be good if christian capes were made out of clear plastic so we could see what is actually going on under there.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 13, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
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From the abstract of the first citation:
"conservative religious ideology apparently
contributes to societal dysfunction, and religious prosociality and charity are less effective at
improving societal conditions than are secular government programs."
Previously I have remarked that the new field of evolutionary psychology, this citation coming from a journal of that name, may prove to be the most exciting new field in recent history.
I have also asked the question why it is that our societies have not progressed as one would have expected subsequent to the great flowering during the classic Greek era.
I put these together with the severe dysfunction that has become so apparent in the US in just the last fifteen years and I have to ask.
Does the reduced rate of progress in human societies since say 200BC correlate in any way with the rise of the several theologies during later periods.
We do know the renaissance following the black deaths of the 1500's featured both a flowering of the arts and sciences and reduced power of the church. Much of our present civilization arose during that period.
Nothing is this simple in the real world.
But it seems we need to begin asking new questions.
And very seriously so.
A lot of reading here bc. We are in your debt.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 13, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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John, I would have to suggest at this point that Nietzsche was way ahead of the curve on this. Poor guy gets such a bad rep for reasons utterly beyond his control, but he clearly forsaw the accelerated decline of western culture as a result of the decadence and resentement that arose out of the exaggerated priestly Christian piety he called "slave morality." He certainly had a few flaws in his own character and analysis, but in the big picture he was pretty much spot on.
I'd recommend starting with The Genealogy of Morals and then working into Beyond Good and Evil and (horrors!) The Anti-Christ. There's a lot in there that can be applied to the social dilemmas you've spelled out here.
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apogee
climber
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Jan 13, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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NEW YORK (CBS) Pat Robertson, the American Christian televangelist and host of "The 700 Club," said that Haitians need to have a "great turning to god" while he was reporting on the devastating 7.0 earthquake that shook the island nation — the most powerful to hit the country in a century.
As Haitian Prime Minister Jean-Max Bellerive said "well over" 100,000 people may have died in the natural disaster, Robertson took to the airwaves Wednesday on his show and said that the country has been "cursed by one thing after another" since they "swore a pact to the devil."
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/01/13/crimesider/entry6092717.shtml
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 13, 2010 - 06:19pm PT
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What a sad old man.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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Paul-
I'm still pondering your statement that:
A greater achievement will be humanities separation from that invention.When we as human beings are finally able to stand alone in the unthinkable space of our existence and declare the greatness of our potential and make that potential a practical fact.
I can appreciate the nobility in that statement and the fact that it may happen at some distant point in time if we don't extinct our species first.
I put it in the same category as Ed's insistence that every spiritual experience is merely a by product of an evolved animal brain.
It may be true, but it has not been proved and won't be one way or the other, for a very long period of time.
Dr. F.-
I have no doubt that the small percentage of our population who are atheists behave better than average. To be an atheist is to stand up to the norm, think your positions through, and be aware that you are a role model for a very small minority. The fact that atheists as a group are able to think all these issues through indicates that they are more affluent and literate than average. Likewise the participation on this thread on a website.
The handful of atheists in America or the world for that matter are not the people I have been commenting on when I say that humanity at large is not ready to function without religion. I am not directing my comments at individuals, but rather societal and evolutionary trends.
As for whether Buddha was enlightened, the answer is yes and many others of many different religions as well. There are very specific stages that one goes through to reach the mental state known as enlightenment. Until recently, the West has lacked any clear description of the complete path. However, a recent book by Jim Marion, Putting on the Mind of Christ: the Inner Work of Christian Spirituality, draws the major Christian works on the topic into one consistent framework with enough references to eastern religions that anyone familiar with them can see the direct correspondence. A lot of what he writes however, is in direct contradiction to the traditional interpretations of the same scripture that he quotes, so I doubt that mainstream Christians will be following his path any time soon.
jstan-
Marion would be the first to agree with you that Christians should wear transparent capes. He has written another great book called Death of the Mythic God: theRise of Evolutionary Spirituality which skewers modern day Christianity, Catholicism in particular.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 13, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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weschrist- "I sure do hate those Christians."
Paradoxical/ironic isn't it? That Christian's are instructed to love you, and Christ died for you! And that you choose to hate Him is prophetic!!
"and you will be hated by all because of My name." 21:17
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