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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Think it through, jonnyrig. Back in my bakery days I couldn't buy a beer after 2 am, but cocaine, loads, weed was all readily available. In high school it was a lot easier to get LSD than alcohol.
Make it legal and you eliminate crime. Read the book, or maybe ignorance makes you feel better about your views?
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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Well then Ron, I suppose your murder rate should drop with all those new guns protecting you. Let's see how it goes.
Right now the US has 3 times the murder rate that Canada has, and 5 times the gun related murder rate. Here in the Great White North we do most of our killin' old school.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Yeah, when I have time I'll read through the link. It's a lot of info. I don't have time right now.
Cool, you'll find it very interesting.
I actually prefer to learn what I can when I can, whether I agree with the point of view or not. Maybe you could refrain from calling me ignorant. But if it makes you feel better...
My apologies. I never thought of you as the stick your head in the sand type.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Here in the Great White North we do most of our killin' old school.
Yeah! That makes it MUCH better!
Actually, contrary to what most Americans presently believe, the US was never designed to be a SAFE nation, or "less violent," or "more civilized" than other nations. It was designed to be the most free nation. When "give me liberty or give me death" rings in your ears and the ears of your family and friends, then you will have a totally different perspective on the non-"epidemic of gun violence" in this country.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mist is what im getting at here.
ROFL
Okay, I guess that if you intend to shoot someone, you intend to kill that person. So why not pink mist? Certainly an effective way to ensure that the job is, uhhh... shall we say... DONE.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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Statistically speaking, there will be a good chance the person I shoot will be a mistake. I'd rather my mistakes didn't die.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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The debate is over
Yup, and so far, on this subject, freedom has been winning. At least in most states.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Statistically speaking, there will be a good chance the person I shoot will be a mistake.
Then I'd highly recommend more training, so that you don't become a statistic.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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I'm not really talking about me as I don't have a gun.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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You be right Mr. K, how foolish of me.
On the whole "freedom" issue Madbolter 1, do you see the irony of the US having 25% of the world's inmates, yet only 5% of the population?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Actually, contrary to what most Americans presently believe, the US was never designed to be a SAFE nation, or "less violent," or "more civilized" than other nations. It was designed to be the most free nation
Now that's an interesting perspective.
If the US was designed to be the "most free" nation, what happened? As far as I can tell, having lived in both countries, citizens of the US are not more free than citizens of Canada.
And although I haven't lived in any of them, I do have to spend a fair amount of time in other countries, and work fairly closely with people from all over the world. And again, as far as I can tell, citizens of the US are not more free than citizens of Germany, or the UK, or any number of other countries.
The big difference, as far as I've been able to see, is that citizens of the US are more likely to be murdered or imprisoned than citizens of other countries. Perhaps that is what you mean by "more free", but most people wouldn't see it that way.
And, before you get upset, I'm not anti-US. I live there and I like it. But my American neighbors, no matter that they are armed to the teeth, are not "more free" than my neighbors in Canada were.
Edit to add: And before you make any unfounded assumptions, I'm not anti-gun, either. I grew up with guns, as did most of the Canadian folks around me. But for whatever reason we didn't shoot each other at the same rate Americans did.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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On the whole "freedom" issue Madbolter 1, do you see the irony of the US having 25% of the world's inmates, yet only 5% of the population?
Of course I do. We throw our resources in entirely the wrong direction. In case I haven't been clear thus far, this whole "war on..." mentality is ridiculous and an utter waste of taxpayers' money.
I'm libertarian and believe that virtually everything should be legal. The flip side is that there should be MUCH harsher penalties for violating the inalienable rights of others than there presently are.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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The big difference, as far as I've been able to see, is that citizens of the US are more likely to be murdered or imprisoned than citizens of other countries. Perhaps that is what you mean by "more free", but most people wouldn't see it that way.
I completely agree. The US is presently sliding into a full-on, Big Brother society. Yet we also lack the full-on police state that could provide at least a modicum of "pre-crime" protection. This hybrid society has neither the founders' intended freedoms nor the total lock-down needed to prevent most crime.
Personal responsibility and intentional exercise of rights remains the only hope. But most Americans today are so inured to the negativity of the idea that government exists primarily to "protect" them (on countless levels) that the core of personal responsibility has well nigh evaporated.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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We have to shoot our way to freedom.
How do you think this nation got free from England?
It's happened before, and it will happen again. Hopefully not in my lifetime.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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My gun is not a big, heavy, dangerous tool! My gun is quite small, quite light, and not at all dangerous in itself. Look up the safety features on the H&K P30. It is about the safest gun on the market, while being very quickly deployable.
That's funny considering how many times in the news you hear the person saying, "I didn't think it was loaded".
I know, I know, it will never happen to you or any resposible gun owner, till it happens.
Kind of like, I'm a seasoned climber, I'll never make a mistake.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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For what it's worth, I think that both the "gun nuts" and the "anti-gun-nuts" are equally wrong on this issue.
The problem in the US is not that too many people have guns, nor is it that there is an Obama-led conspiracy to take away everybody's guns.
Contrary to the beliefs of a lot of anti-gun crazies, Canadians (and Germans and Swedes and Brits, and...) are gun owners. Maybe they don't have 88mm anti-aircraft batteries mounted on their rooftops like Ron Anderson does, but they are hunters, target-shooters, and collectors just like he is.
So, given that Canadians are free to own guns just like you citizens of the US, why don't they murder each other at the rate you do?
This isn't rocket science folks. It's real simple -- Americans murder each other because they live in a culture of violence.
You pinko liberal wankers can pass all the laws you want, and nothing will change. And you redneck conservative crazies can own all the guns you want and nothing will change.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Americans murder each other because they live in a culture of violence.
So, near as I can tell what we need to do is play more hockey?
Makes sense to me. I just hope it isn't the curling that is responsible.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I know, I know, it will never happen to you or any resposible gun owner, till it happens.
It's not inevitable. In fact the number of guns and gun owners, compared to the number of gun-related accidents makes the odds look pretty good that it won't happen, ever, to the vast, vast majority of responsible gun owners.
Kind of like, I'm a seasoned climber, I'll never make a mistake.
Mistakes happen, of course. But the vast, vast majority of mistakes don't result in catastrophe. In my 40+ years of climbing, I've made plenty of mistakes. Fortunately the system has redundancies built in that help a lot. Same with a good gun and good training.
You look at the majority of accidental (particularly negligent) discharges, and they consist largely of goofballs playing fast-draw games, and that with less-safe weapons or weapons with safety features overridden to allow for "faster" draws.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE
Goofball-boy here has NO business with his finger inside the trigger guard until he's lined up and ready to fire. Basic gun-safety, and ironically something that would not even slow him down.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Maybe they don't have 88mm anti-aircraft batteries mounted on their rooftops like Ron Anderson does
Nicely done, sir! I spewed a drink out my nose, and that's not easy to cause.
Canadians ARE a nice breed, no doubt. I love visiting Canada.
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