Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 02:35am PT
|
Ed,
How's the weather? When is the secret meeting of all of the scientists this year?
If I'm not mistaken, duping humanity was on the schedule for this year's shindig.
Boo Yah.
|
|
Ben Emery
Trad climber
Australia via Bay Area via Australia...
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 04:13am PT
|
Speaking as a scientist I've always been a little sad and morose that I've never been invited to those meetings or let in on the great conspiracy... Maybe neuroscience just wasn't the right field.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 10:57am PT
|
Last I checked into it deeply was 3 years ago. But at that time roughly 1/3 of emissions was electrical generation. 1/3 was transportation and 1/3 other.
the 1/3 that was electrical was aprox 2 terawatts. If we went nuclear that would be about 2000 new nuclear plants.
And we would only drop emmissions by 1/3. To make the impact we need to We probably need to go past 50% of current emmisions and KEEP IT THERE.
Electrical vehicles would be the next easiest thing and that would take more electrical generation. Say another several 100 nuclear plants.
Sorry I keep going on about Nuclear but there isn't any other clean (CO2 clean) alternative that at this time or in the next couple decades or so that can even come close to replacing that much electricity.
The most powerful solar plant in the world produces a measly 20 Megawatts. That is pathetic and pointless in this ocean of energy needs.
Ted Talk Bill Gates. No I didnt get this idea from him.. I had it for years from simply doing the numbers. I think he is a bit wrong about needing to get near 0 emmissions but the point he makes in total is solid.
http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates.html
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 11:21am PT
|
Climbski2,Solar is a viable alternative.Uranium mining is probably worse than affecting some desert ecosystems.As always,there will be no easy road.
http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/solarenergy.aspx
There are enthusiastic folks that believe the 100 square mile plan.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 11:50am PT
|
I appreciate all the humor i see from you guys lately and Corysue's input-well priceless. I would like to inform you we have many other associates there at the Koch Building, the names are too numerous to note now with the exception of Dr. Rong and his global wetting theory.
And no, i am not any where as confused as some of you assume, it is your interpretation of what i was presenting along with my lack of a total understanding and poor articulation that is the confusions source. I am well aware of the difference in the observation graphs and projection graphs.
Now all you guys should reassemble back at the Gore Building to formulate your defense and newly twisted paths of attack.Good day Gentlemen and Ladies.
P.S. ClimbSki2 offers a viable, on the shelf alternative, that could be fairly rapidly deployed safely with today's technology and is much more cost effective than solar and wind. It is telling that this alternative always seems to be rejected by those calling for radical change.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
|
Bruce it is good that you recognize the source of the technology you are using.Other than immediate family, and a search my dad did before his death
revealing our lineage back to a William Sumner in 1632 in Virginia, i don't know of other extended relatives. He may well be. I know there is a Sumner Family Association but i've not participated as it meets in Koch Building 13 which is beyond my security clearance.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
|
Fair Points Ed. But long term I think nuclear is the only answer unless some very incredible major technology breakthroughs occur. (hopefully it will happen seems almost likely eventually). Conserve all we like but our population continues to grow faster than our ability to become that much more efficient with current tech it seems.
Also I really do think you would find that Ted-Talk interesting and your opinion on the reactor/fuel system he talks about would be really interesting to me. Perhaps you have seen it or commented on it in the past and I missed it.
I think the time constraints are pretty serious on this issue. Weather patterns are being affected and will get worse at current output. In the real world that means people dying widespread unnecessary human caused suffering, economies and food production significantly affected. These risks and the magnitude of destruction are much higher than the risks from nuclear power.
One extra bad typhoon hitting Bangladesh would cause more destruction and death than Chernobyl. Just one. Let alone all the other severe events worldwide from droughts to hurricanes and everything in between that will be amplified by the energy content of the atmosphere and oceans.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
|
Upstream in this thread i asked all you guys, Ed included, what your belief level is in DAGW. Nobody responded.Why, given your guys defense of the "consensus view" aren't you adjusting your personal lives proportionate to the dire consequences you seem to believe we face?Why do you guys find problems in all seemingly reasonable alternatives except huge adjustments towards solar, wind, tidal, biofuels, etc. and prefer to trend to conservation? Given the ever increasing population and the third worlds energy hungry emergence to a higher standard of living, how much conservation on your part would be necessary to counteract these pressures?Are you willing to return to your personal stoneage or are you guys just a bunch of whiners of little belief in what you espouse?
Let me present an alternative. Instead of retreating inwards with fright and collective self loathing why don't we grow some testicles, embrace a sort of cosmological manifest destiny, conserve,innovate, and change where we can reasonably do so while putting an emphasis on outward expansion from this third stone from the sun?
P.S. Hell, if i saw such changes in collective emphasis i would be much more willing to pay higher taxes maybe even a few of your guys share of the national debt.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
|
I'm pro-nuke. Primarily because baseload/storage issues aren't likely to resolve soon, and wind/solar/tidal have inherent unpredicability and/or diurnal issues. Pebble bed reactor design seems to eliminate the meltdown/runaway reaction aspect. So you're down to waste handling as a primary concern.
Of course the uranium mining to support it isn't very friendly...but with an alternative being coal...still mining, or nat gas...fracing...no easy answer (otherwise we'd have already done it)
|
|
Hoser
climber
vancouver
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
|
The best short term is to work on conservation, that is, not using energy, but the mitigations also have to be calculated with the idea of the net savings of energy.
Have you heard of Jevons paradox?
So in order for demand side management to work we need to increase the cost of energy in step with efficiency. Otherwise it actually works against us. Here in BC our clean energy requirement is to meet 66% of new power needs by DSM.
But man does that tick people off, our own premier shot down the rate increases of our public utility so its going to take alot more than just wishing people ride a bike.
The nuclear argument is probably going to make some come back, the small modular reactors they are building now, 10 MW are possibly a bit more palatable for folks. But the 4 they had slated NW alberta got shut down pretty quickly.
|
|
Hoser
climber
vancouver
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
|
The most powerful solar plant in the world produces a measly 20 Megawatts. That is pathetic and pointless in this ocean of energy needs.
I think thats wrong, and some of your numbers are confusing, or I dont get it.
Are you talking power or capacity?
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
|
Maximum output.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS20_solar_power_plant
And in a way I was wrong thy are building more of these towers and the total will be 300MW once the complex is finished. That does put a real dent in overall picture of needing to replace about 2TW ( 2 Mega mega watts) worth of co2 intensive electrical generation.
This is good tech. Instead of needing to store the electricity in batteries the towers store the heat in the form of Liquified Salt for use in generation when the sun is down.
Nevada is on the bandwagon for this type of electrical generation.
http://www.solarreserve.com/what-we-do/csp-projects/crescent-dunes/
Crescent Dunes – 110.0 megawatts
In the construction stage, this concentrated solar thermal project will include a molten salt storage system to enable electricity generation even when the sun is hidden by clouds or into the night. It is located near Tonopah, Nev. and is owned by SolarReserve.
The project is expected to be in service by 2014. SolarReserve's molten salt, concentrating solar power tower technology was successfully demonstrated in California under a U.S. Department of Energy-sponsored pilot project in the late 1990s. The new facility will utilize a molten salt receiver designed and engineered by Rocketdyne, now a part of United Technologies Corporation.
-----
ED have you watched that ted talk? I really am interested in your opinion of the feasibility of reactors that could use our current waste as fuel.
|
|
Hoser
climber
vancouver
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
|
What about the one on the Mojave, 354 MW?
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
|
dunno much about it.. but I might have taken a picture of it a couple weeks ago.
|
|
Hoser
climber
vancouver
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
|
I had a coffee with a guy who works on the photo voltaic team at my work and he said something along the lines of they are now just building the cheapest ones they can, not very efficient but then they just have lots and lots and lots of them
|
|
McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
|
What do you guys know about fuels from Algae? Is it true they absorb as much CO2 during the production/growth phase as gets created burning them? Of course, there will be other energy costs producing them but that sounds good. Also, I read that an area the size of Belgium could supply enough fuel to equal current fuel use. I'm reading this stuff in CHINA AIRBORNE - an easy read about the Chinese aviation industry.
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
|
McHales Navy,b 100 ,biodiesel fuel,made from corn,soy,and other plant oils ,is completely carbon negative.There is a version with algae,I just do not have any data on that.Yet.10 year biodiesel user.
Way to be Climbski2
Ed also.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
|
Here is the Molten Salt Tower project just outside Tonopah Nevada that some of you have talking about. It is the largest scale construction of the technology (110 MW) yet built in the world. It will be an interesting test of the underground Molten Salt storage system to see if can provide 24 hour on demand commercial scale energy production. If it works as well as design then it will be one good solution to the major problems with renewable energy.
Ed i don't mind being called a bastard, since my father was largely missing during my upbringing, but lazy i take exception to.For the last 30 years i've been engaged in constructing high quality, and way above the evolving energy usage standards, homes in Alaska and to a lesser extent in Northern Nevada.I've always kept abreast of the technologies and consistently have provided a product exceeding the standards of the day.One of our typical 4 bedroom houses of 2200 s.f. with an attached 3 car (heated which is a necessity in the sub Arctic) garage of 750 s.f. produces in the range of 19k to 20k of CO2 a year with an occupancy load of 5 people. You can calculate a the CO2 production yourself from the car usage of your average working father and soccer mom.My own home here in Nevada (rescued from 4 years of non occupancy neglect and imminent landfill transfer) is a passive solar home of the Solar Slab design. It has a 60 foot long due so. facing greenhouse with Trond wall feeding bouyant heated air into a air plenum of a forced air furnace heating system. There is ducts around the perimeter of the on grade slab for both return and supply. The ducts heat the slab which radiates fairly equally heat throughout the house. I use very little gas. During the summer the higher transit of the sun, and a 4 foot eave around the entire perimeter of the house, blocks much of the direct sun exposure to the trond wall or windows. I have a highly reflective white roof and the home is pretty close to super insulated. The result of all this is i don't have to cool the home during summer months. I've never seen it exceed 73 degrees indoors even during prolonged bouts of 90 plus degree days. I have a solar hot water heating system which is the only current solar technology that has bang for the buck without government subsidy.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!