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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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The Monarch butterfly starts as a cocoon, and does not know the life of a butterfly, Jesus said you must be born again!
You Must Be Born Again
John 3:1-15, Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I'm guesssin' it will turn out to following the magnetic fluxes for salmon and M Butterfly. and sharks whales and various migratory birds, etc
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Probably right Jaybro.
Dr. F, I'm pretty sure science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god(s). No one can. We are all mental speculators concerning this topic (can I use this phrase Werner, or have you copyrighted it).
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WBraun
climber
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Nobody would even exist or be alive if it wasn't for God.
Only a fools who are totally blind do not understand.
This is an absolute fact.
God has been proven eternally and now and will be in future forever.
Who cares for some nobody/nobodies, rascals, saying that God does not exist.
All fools and rascals can not see because they're blind as hell .....
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Dr. F, nothing that can be observed, seen or detected
Therefore God does not exist
Argument from ignorance? The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Argument from ignorance
The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:
1. Something is currently unexplained or insufficiently understood or explained, so it is not (or must not be) true.
2. Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proven. Wikipedia
I wish science could do something about this, but because there is no evidence or experiments we can turn to, we cannot come to any satisfactory conclusion. I regard myself as a atheist concerning all the named gods and world religions. I don't care what people believe or how they spend (waste) their time. However, it pisses me off when they try to introduce religion into classrooms or wrongly modify textbooks. Religion has no place in public policy in a pluralistic society like ours. I'm agnostic concerning the existence of god(s). I reserve a very, very, very small percentage of possibly for the existence of god. Who knows, we may yet find a unicorn.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Dr.F.- "...what does God do?"
He gives to each a measure of faith.
It is up to you to utilise it. And then He will prove Himself to you!
It is not possible for any mere man to prove or disprove the existence of God. We can make strong testimony for/or against.
But only He can reveal Himself to you.
He does it on an individual/personal level.
It is a free gift.
You either ask and receive...or reject/deny.
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MH2
climber
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But only He can reveal Himself to you.
He does it on a individual/personal level.
Do you think He shows any geographic or cultural bias in where and how He does this?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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Dr. F,
Maybe we just don't have ways to detect God the way you are talking about yet?
Like radio and TV waves before we discovered them?
Just because we can't see Him in are physical dimension you should think that is possible?
Look how motion pictures went from film to digital and Blu-Ray and that's not the end?
God only let Moses see Him after He passed by, in the physical body Moses would have died!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Do you think He shows any geographic or cultural bias..."
None what soever.
Christianity in China S. America, Indonesia and other third world country's is exploding. S. Korea has church's that # in the hundreds of thousands and the vast majority of Christians belong to home/underground churches.
Compared to America(USA)which the rest of the world is booming(other than Europe which declared Christianity dead)and now is flourishing with Islamic Fundies!!! Go figure!
"God is no respecter of men."
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MH2
climber
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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Do you think He shows any geographic or cultural bias..."
None what soever.
Do you see the circularity, then? Or how do you account for Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan 10, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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Buddhist, Hindus, Muslim, Catholicism, and the other"religions" including various forms "Christianity" are just that religions.
Religion=man working his way to God! Actually they look at themselves and say I'm not like them, I'm a good guy I do this, I do that, I have never done that. Or I was born a Christian, we are all(relatives)Christians, I have gone to church/belonged all my life. I, I, I...
If there was a Rapture of the church tonight, God took all the Christians on earth away. The churches in America would still be filled with "christians" tomorrow(many, not all).
"Many are called, few are chosen."(many choose not to answer His call)
I am talking about a relationship, not a religion!
God reaching down to man.
Not man working his way up to God.
Like I said, the rest of the world is flourishing.
And it's not over yet.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 10, 2010 - 10:03am PT
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Serve the Lord with gladness.
Psalms 100:2
Delight in divine service is a token of acceptance. Those who serve God with a sad countenance, because they do what is unpleasant to them, are not serving Him at all; they bring the form of loyalty, but the life is absent. Our God requires no slaves to grace His throne; He is the Lord of the empire of love, and would have His servants dressed in the uniform of joy.
The angels of God serve Him with songs, not with groans; a murmur or a sigh would be a mutiny in their ranks. That obedience that is not voluntary is disobedience, for the Lord looks at the heart, and if He sees that we serve Him from force, and not because we love Him, He will reject our offering.
Service coupled with cheerfulness is heart-service and therefore true. Take away joyful willingness from the Christian, and you have removed the test of his sincerity. If a man be driven to battle, he is no patriot; but he who marches into the fray with flashing eye and beaming face, singing, "It is sweet for one's country to die," proves himself to be sincere in his patriotism.
Cheerfulness is the support of our strength; in the joy of the Lord are we strong. It acts as the remover of difficulties. It is to our service what oil is to the wheels of a railway carriage. Without oil the axle soon grows hot, and accidents occur; and if there be not a holy cheerfulness to oil our wheels, our spirits will be clogged with weariness.
The man who is cheerful in his service of God proves that obedience is his element; he can sing,
Make me to walk in your commands,
It's a delightful road.
Reader, let us put this question--do you serve the Lord with gladness? Let us show to the people of the world, who think our religion to be slavery, that it is to us a delight and a joy! Let our gladness proclaim that we serve a good Master.
Truth For Life - Pastor Alistair Begg
http://www.truthforlife.org/
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Truth_for_Life/archives.asp?bcd=2010-1-8
Psalm 100
A Psalm of Thanksgiving.
1 Make a joyful shout to the LORD, all you lands!
2 Serve the LORD with gladness;
Come before His presence with singing.
3 Know that the LORD, He is God;
It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;
We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.
4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving,
And into His courts with praise.
Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.
5 For the LORD is good;
His mercy is everlasting,
And His truth endures to all generations.
Why Do You Hide Yourself?
Psalm 10, Why, O Lord, do you stand far away?
Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?
2 In arrogance the wicked hotly pursue the poor;
let them be caught in the schemes that they have devised.
3 For the wicked boasts of the desires of his soul,
and the one greedy for gain curses and renounces the Lord.
4 In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him;
all his thoughts are, “There is no God.”
5 His ways prosper at all times;
your judgments are on high, out of his sight;
as for all his foes, he puffs at them.
6 He says in his heart, “I shall not be moved;
throughout all generations I shall not meet adversity.”
7 His mouth is filled with cursing and deceit and oppression;
under his tongue are mischief and iniquity.
8 He sits in ambush in the villages;
in hiding places he murders the innocent.
His eyes stealthily watch for the helpless;
9 he lurks in ambush like a lion in his thicket;
he lurks that he may seize the poor;
he seizes the poor when he draws him into his net.
10 The helpless are crushed, sink down,
and fall by his might.
11 He says in his heart, “God has forgotten,
he has hidden his face, he will never see it.”
12 Arise, O Lord; O God, lift up your hand;
forget not the afflicted.
13 Why does the wicked renounce God
and say in his heart, “You will not call to account”?
14 But you do see, for you note mischief and vexation,
that you may take it into your hands;
to you the helpless commits himself;
you have been the helper of the fatherless.
15 Break the arm of the wicked and evildoer;
call his wickedness to account till you find none.
16 The Lord is king forever and ever;
the nations perish from his land.
17 O Lord, you hear the desire of the afflicted;
you will strengthen their heart; you will incline your ear
18 to do justice to the fatherless and the oppressed,
so that man who is of the earth may strike terror no more.
Creationists Take Another...
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MH2
climber
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Jan 11, 2010 - 04:26am PT
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Psalm 10, Why, O Lord, do you stand far away?
Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?
Good question, eh Gobee?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jan 11, 2010 - 08:35am PT
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1 Timothy 4:7-8, Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
1 Corinthians 9:24-26, Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air.
1 Timothy 6:11-12, Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith.
God, thank you for this day!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.1) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2010 - 11:26am PT
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answer my one question, what does God Do???
and the answer is; nothing that can be observed, seen or detected
Therefore God does not exist, end of story
Let's say you have a dream. What could the characters in your dream say you are doing? How would they go about proving that you exist? You can't be seen because you are the source of everything seen, you encompass and create all.
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Jan 11, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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After two millennia of looking for evidence that a god, any god, has had a direct effect on the material world and finding none, one can surely say it is an unusual problem. Can we think of any other area where we have made so little progress in 2000 years?
Now we hear the supposition, and it is only a supposition, that god does not want us or at least any but the selected few, to see god. But the bible provides many tales of miracles in the material world precisely to convince us god does have material effect. Has god adopted a change of strategy? Two thousand years ago we were supposed to see god? Now god is not so sure? Or is the ability to see god something given only to the chosen few now? Maybe there is a fee for this ability?
We might consider this new supposition more seriously if the supposer could give a plausible reason for god’s change in strategy.
Now our inability to see god makes arguable the theory that we merely lack the technical means to do so. (Please note this is a something that can be said regarding ANY unsupported proposition.) If you will, it is a “freebie” requiring nothing from the person advancing it. It does not get around the point that in the absence of material evidence for the existence of a god
there is no downside in the material world for conducting one’s life normally, while we wait for that evidence.
The burden of proof does not reside with us.
The oldest way of “winning” a completely unwinnable argument is to slide the burden of proof over to the other person. Science has not the burden of showing a god does not exist. The burden of proof resides with those who assure us they are the earhly agents of this nonmaterial entity and we will burn in hell for eternity if we do not follow their orders.
In that context the perpetual effort by believers to defeat the separation of church and state, is entirely understandable. By this means god( the agents) can be given a potent impact on the material world.
Mind you god has done nothing to cause us to believe he wishes the church and state to be joined. Indeed there are statements to the contrary in the bible. Since he is supposed to be all-knowing you have to think god considered and rejected that idea.
So we have to presume this goal of confusion between church and state is the idea of these earthly agents and may in fact be contrary to god’s will – if there is a god at all.
If there is a hell, a lot of the people in it may have surprised expressions on their faces.
Now here is the true argument in which we are engaged. While we are here on earth it is not arguable that we have no responsibilities to each other. Even the bible says we have these responsibilities. We need to treat each other fairly. So here is the question.
If it makes me feel good to “believe” something or other, am I treating you fairly when I follow the orders of an earthly agent to deprive you of something that is manifestly your’s?
Manifestly yours?
The golden rule predates most of the Aramaic period.
Instead of ever expanding
is not our wisdom in fact shrinking?
If so, it is up to us to do something about it.
That burden cannot be argued away.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 11, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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nice John,
give unto jstan what is jstan's
now we'll endure another set of Gobee bombs...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 11, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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"Let's say you have a dream. What could the characters in your dream say you are doing? How would they go about proving that you exist? You can't be seen because you are the source of everything seen, you encompass and create all."
If existence is just a dream and we are the product of that dream then how can we possibly be said to have free will? Our production would be from the subconscious of the dreamer, our actions a function of the dreamers will.
The belief that corporeal matter is just a dream ignores the ineluctable modality of the senses and therefore makes little "sense."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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After two millennia of looking for evidence that a god, any god, has had a direct effect on the material world and finding none, one can surely say it is an unusual problem. Can we think of any other area where we have made so little progress in 2000 years?
Perhaps there's more progress than you think. Science has come to the point where it recognizes everything as different vibrations of the same energy. That's not very far from reaching God, we've come a long way.
The "new age" movement, which embraces the truth found in all religions and paths and embraces experience, and escrews strict dogma, might be seen as progress for those not invested in a traditional faith.
and mankind as a whole is renouncing slavery and the concept of war to gain territory and embracing women's rights
We're not all the way there but these are the good old days.
More people are having experiences of God than had them in biblical days. It's just that they got the press in the bible and now you either don't read or don't believe about modern day experiences. Read "autobiography of a yogi" and you'll see every miracle from the Bible in modern times
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 11, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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Yeah but, "now that the living out number the dead" there's more going on in a lot of fields. Karl, do you think the percent has increased over 'biblical times'? I don't know, frankly.
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