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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Not always, see Kansas Board of Education, Dover, etc.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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What we know in science is provisional, and changes and adapts as we gather new observational evidence. The fossil record is growing but is not continuous. While we have ideas about what is happening in these time "gaps" there is nothing like having actual data to guide our thinking.
In the video clip from Science that I provided a link to above, the anthropologists were discussing their surprise over Ardi's hands, which they thought would be more adapted to knuckle walking. This wouldn't be such a crazy guess since both Chimpanzees (gen. Pan) and Gorillas (gen. Gorilla) knuckle walk, and the cladistics have Gorilla branching off from the common Pan and Homo lines before Pan and Homo diverge... the inference being that knuckle walking was an earlier shared trait.
That doesn't seem to be so.
Now also mentioned was the lack of Pan fossils, and I suspect of Gorilla fossils too, which would help to fill in the evolutionary story. Until these are found, we will try to infer the characteristics of this development. Hopefully, we'll confront our ideas with real data at some future date when the data is available.
Scientists often say things like "it changed our whole way of thinking about things" once such discoveries are made, even on seemingly small points. They are saying this because a scientist may spend their entire career studying a very specific feature with little data... Getting the data can provide a huge change in the specific study, but not overthrow the entire body of work done in the field. It is a surprise to the researchers, but often a non-event in other areas.
The creationists and the biologists have very different theories for the existence of life on planet earth.
Both of these theories are consistent with the empirical evidence.
Creationists construct their theory to be in agreement with the evidence. It provides no predictive capability for the domain of life. All creationist theories are absolute and do not change or adapt to new data.
Evolutionary theory is used in a predictive manner and provides a structure for the discipline of biology, it is biology's organizing principle. Consistent with empirical data, and adaptable to new data, but also providing predictions on where to look. It is provisional because not all is known.
As biology explains more and more about life, and as biologist become more adept at manipulating biological systems, there is a natural tension that arises between the domain of religion, where all creationist thought is centered, and science, where biology is a part of the foundation. The path of scientific investigation is guided by curiosity, and proceeding down that path takes small steps. After some time, one might find oneself very far out on the frontier, and doing very consequential research. The motivation is almost always a simple child like question "how do I understand this?" and not usually of really big things but of little things.
How does a Monarch butterfly navigate over the continent. It is a seemingly simple insect. One can propose all sorts of explanations... and test them. First there was the observation that the length of day was involved. This infers an interaction between an internal clock and the sun-position. In http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2003/0527butterfly.shtml the final quote is: "The light input pathways are quite distinct, so tracking those pathways in may eventually lead us to the cellular level where this clock-compass interaction is occurring." Then 6 years later we read the report: Antennal Circadian Clocks Coordinate Sun Compass Orientation in Migratory Monarch Butterflies.
Abstract: During their fall migration, Eastern North American monarch butterflies (Danaus plexippus) use a time-compensated Sun compass to aid navigation to their overwintering grounds in central Mexico. It has been assumed that the circadian clock that provides time compensation resides in the brain, although this assumption has never been examined directly. Here, we show that the antennae are necessary for proper time-compensated Sun compass orientation in migratory monarch butterflies, that antennal clocks exist in monarchs, and that they likely provide the primary timing mechanism for Sun compass orientation. These unexpected findings pose a novel function for the antennae and open a new line of investigation into clock-compass connections that may extend widely to other insects that use this orientation mechanism.
http://stke.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;325/5948/1700
as the scientists tease understanding out of their studies. Not only do they provide an explanation, in detail about this navigational ability, but also an understanding of how the adaptation might take place, and so how this adaptation might exist in other organisms.
While it is breathtaking to imagine the heroic migration of these beautiful creatures as guided by some unseen force of nature to some. To me it is more breathtaking in it's apparent simplicity and in the affirmation of the general tenants of biology, the major one of which is evolution.
Once again we find the language of surprise in the abstract, Eureka!, so famously uttered by Archimedes, and as scientists we look forward to those moments. Sometimes they are deeply felt serenity of finally knowing something, sometimes they are nervous moments of uncertainty. But those are the moments of reward, the understanding of a thing.
And all of those little moments add up. Not guided to a point, but open to what is, literally expanding out into the universe.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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The creationists and the biologists have very different theories for the existence of life on planet earth.
Both of these theories are consistent with the empirical evidence.
Uh... no, they're not.
Unless an old book full of garbled contradictions counts as empirical evidence.
But it doesn't.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Gobee wrote
I guess in the end, Jesus was crazy, a liar, or He was who He said He was!
And as a Christian we are deluded and wasted our own lives on nothing or there is an all powerful God of the Bible that does what He says He will do!
The charm of this life won't keep me here even if there is no God, for me there is no where else to go, I've made my choice, I'm with Jesus!
Actually, there are a lot of "inbetween" possibilities that involve the text and interpretation of Jesus. Each gospel paints a different picture if you look at them separately and Paul's version is quite different than the words of Christ himself. Nothing was written while he was with them.
add to that, our knee jerk acceptance of Jesus as some tie-wearing, church pet rather than the critical-of-the-status-quo reformer that turned the table on the moneychangers. I don't see many Christians embracing those types anymore. Better be sure that you'd even listen to a modern day Jesus if he came and go against common interpretations of Religion or if you would hang on to dogma like the holy Pharisees did.
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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cintune I once believed as you do, but the essence of the religious argument are essentially a construction to agree with what is known of the last 10,000 years (give or take) that is a part of the human direct experience as passed down from generation to generation.
The details as written are open to interpretation, including a literal reading. However, the arguments are all the same: the creation of the universe is a divine act. Further, the ability for the divine to act is inferred, and our inability to understand how it happens is also inferred from the proposition that since we think it cannot be done, we can't understand how it is done.
But as an argument, there is no refuting it.
What makes it sterile is the fact that it explains what is, but does not have any predictive ability. If some divine force creates the universe, and we cannot understand that creation, the only thing we can do is wait for the truth to be revealed by this divinity. We are powerless to understand it.
There are variations, but it is the essence of the creationists' point.
We can get into detail on whatever religious text you choose, whether or not the facts are correct... but I think it is an irrelevant exercise, and badly fails as a strategy in this particular debate, there are people a whole lot more knowledgeable about these text than I ever will be, I am not going to debate them on the meanings of those texts.
However, those texts are taken as immutable truths. And the creationists argue that those are the truths. Unfortunately for them, our knowledge of the universe expands beyond the domain of what was known when those truths were written, and it is necessary to translate those "ancient" texts in such a way to explain new findings.
In science, it works the other way, with the theories pointing the way to new knowledge, and a way of incorporating those new findings into the growing body of knowledge.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Good points, but the didactic nature of creationist accounts does tend to ignore the necessity of any argument from other than authority. The notable exception, of course, lies in the Vedic approach, which is admirably noncommittal:
Then was not non-existence nor existence: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where?.... Who knows then whence it first came into being? He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not. -(Rig Veda 10.129.1-7)
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MH2
climber
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Scientists often say things like "it changed our whole way of thinking about things" once such discoveries are made, even on seemingly small points.
Yes. The "creation science" website I found high on the Google list was only using a specious debating tactic when they implied that by accommodating new evidence scientists had, "been wrong all this time!" I did not foresee the need to comment on how ridiculous that suggestion is.
Organized religion is vulnerable to conservative and repressive influences. George Orwell's Animal Farm could easily have been about religion.
Much much better to consider the Monarch butterfly or the solitary wasp.
"Those who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand."
Kurt Vonnegut
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Much better to consider the Monarch butterfly or solitary wasp..."
Yes, let's consider how the M. butterfly does manage to get from Canada and fly south to a very specific part of the Sierra Madre Mt's. deep into Mexico. Winter their, and return to Canada with only a few weeks to live to produce the next generation.
We (Homo sapiens)require maps/GPS just to get across town!
They took a batch of M. butterflies that they captured in Kansas(during migration)and brought them to the east coast, and released them. Initially they flew for about 100 miles south, then suddenly made a 90 degree turn towards KC, flew west for about 1,000 miles and then resumed their journey south(as per PBS show on the M. butterfly).
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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. . . obviously it must be that the invisible hand of god carries them . . .
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wanda!
Or maybe if we start to include M. butterfly's in our diet, or exstract some of their dna and...we wouldn't need maps and gps and our God given brains to just git across town.
Sure would be nice back-up the next time we get lost somewhere, like the vast Sonoran Desert(which the M. butterfly crosses).
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Or how about another species...the Chinook salmon.
The Chinook salmon will travel as far as 2,500 miles at sea(Pacific Ocean)and remain at sea for 4-7 years, before returning to its place of birth.
Think about this. Fish they tagged returned to the exact spot of their spawning. Across the ocean fighting various currents and conditions up rivers down streams past dozens of tributaries until they found the precise one that led to there respective point of origination. Not following each other down their various paths, but to their specific point of origination or spawning. As do the other four category of Pacific salmon(coho etc.)and steelhead trout.
Something to marvel at considering our own pathetic pathfinding abilities.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think the point I was trying to make, is that this happens in a quite understandable way, without resort to any heavenly assistance, either along the trip, or in the capability.
While we humans may have an idea of how it is so complicated to do, we miss the simpler, more subtle ways that these attributes find by evolved adaptation.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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You can look at these awe-inspiring things and you can just assume it's all part of some wonderful, incomprehensible god-magic, or you could go to google and type in "monarch butterfly migration biological mechanism" and see if you can learn something.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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wanda!
I have been to those sites many times, along with different documentaries such as the one carried by PBS recently.
And we all continue to marvel...that is what I had to say.
Your making an implication wanda!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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I don't know what an "imlication" is, but I guess I am making my own assumptions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wanda!
Sorry, my keys stick on my laptop keyboard, especially the 'p' key. I was inferring that you were implying that I ...forget it!!
What a marvelous world we live in.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wanda- "and see if you learn something"
I have over 250+ semester units at the graduate/post-graduate level in a couple of our finest centers of higher learning(Universities).
A majority of which are in the sciences! I have a very open mind...do you?
EDIT: And I learned alot, but I am wise enough to realise that science does not have ALL the answers!!
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F -- "But Science can prove the absence of a God"
Impossible!!!
Can never ever be done. EVER!!!
Science itself is one aspect of God himself!
It's impossible to eliminate God. God is even the act of eliminate.
God is everything, and still he's ONE .....
acintya bheda bheda tattva >>> simultaneous oneness and difference
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jesus gave His life for us...
Come to Me, and I Will Give You Rest
Matthew 11"25-30 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Woes to the Pharisees and Lawyers
Luke 11:37-53, While Jesus was speaking, a Pharisee asked him to dine with him, so he went in and reclined at table. The Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash before dinner. And the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? But give as alms those things that are within, and behold, everything is clean for you.
“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seat in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. Woe to you! For you are like unmarked graves, and people walk over them without knowing it.”
One of the lawyers answered him, “Teacher, in saying these things you insult us also.” And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed. So you are witnesses and you consent to the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and you build their tombs. Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.”
As he went away from there, the scribes and the Pharisees began to press him hard and to provoke him to speak about many things, lying in wait for him, to catch him in something he might say.
A Big tip of the old hard hat to you Christians posting up here!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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The PBS show is very good, and I applaud the honesty of the scientist involved for including the segment regarding the demonstration of the theory that the M. butterfly was following the Sun's ray's south or wind currents etc. But their experiment of relocating the butterfly's 1,000 mi east at the New Jersey shore, and expecting the butterfly's to follow the Sun directly South failed. And they admitted so.
And they marveled at the fact that the butterlies went against all odds(trade winds over the Atlantic etc.)to fly west. And at a point just below where they were gathered/taken off course, resume their Southerly migration!
Next time PBS programs it, watch it for yourself!!
Just saying, it is fascinating...no matter how you look at it.
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