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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Is that US 5.12 trad, or UK 5.12 trad ?
I might just qualify for one of those, even though my opinion matters shite anyway.
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WBraun
climber
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Cracko
To limit discourse and opinion to only people you feel are qualified seems non constructive and inflexible.
The discussion goes far deeper than the surface problems we see as our false bodily identification as "climbers" only.
I am trad, or I am sport, or I am mountaineer, etc etc
We have some limited independent free will, rights and choices to do right or wrong.
In our worldly affairs sometimes what seems right can be wrong and vice verse, what seems wrong can be right. The only way to know for sure is to test against the absolute standard.
Even in this material world there are standards which are set to measure the truth.
The Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates .......
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Good perspective from Karl Baba, as usual:
The First Ascent of the entire Half Dome was a bolt ladder (George Anderson, October 1875).
First big aid climb in Yosemite. First bolt ladder anywhere, ever. He set another precedent too that time has validated: he spent days, probably weeks, putting it up. Installed fixed ropes to his high point. It took him so long that he built a cabin to bivy in, at that spring a mile back down the trail.
Of course since Robbins has walked down that face outside the cables ("with his hands in his pockets" goes the legend), then the cables "should" probably be chopped...
Anyway, since then we've made a little progress. Or as the Dalai Lama said to a huge crowd I was in, "Spiritual progress? Maybe a little. But certain bad bugs..." For one, we now don't bother to drill the 1" by 6" holes Anderson made. And for another, as Robbins demonstrated on Anderson's route, free climbing has trumped aid as the evolving front.
All that was in the movie that never got made...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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going back a few posts-
clint, do you really hear what you are saying?
if i understand, you are of the opinion that to continuously drill holes on lead for passage of the FA, only to intentionally fill them and leave a bolted free climb behind, one which was neither attempted nor ascended by the FA, would somehow be "better" than respecting the rock itself enough to aspire to minimize the drilling necessary to leave behind the same bolted free climb?
(edit: my understanding of valley traditions is that at their heart, they aspire to protect the stone itself, which so many of us have always agreed was worthy of a level of respect that is hard for most of us to put into words)
IMO, all tradition and local history notwithstanding, that just holds no water at all. it would be one thing if you said ground up- drilling from a stance- or not at all (i am not even sure i would disagree entirely), but to say that it's ok to build and erase a ladder in order to abide by tradition, even when nobody ever will repeat the aid ascent of the top 1000', man that just blows me away. that approach seems destructive and abusive of the resource, anything but proud for the FA, and at least as likely to stir up a shitstorm of controversey after the fact.
if it were done that way, i would feel even less interested in ever climbing the route.
(note: we are not talking about linking features w/ aid, but continuously chipping your way up a slab, just as the WoS crew were accused of doing. in such a case, how is patching the batholes anything but obscuring your dirty laundry?)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Karl, great summary. Doug, good addition.
But you are both forgetting one very obvious addition...
Park Service rap-bolts the MOTHER of all routes, with artificial holds and
massive bolts for pro. Yes, holds every 6 feet, and no need to bring a
stick clip. They even bolted over an existing route!! Access given to those
that only need to walk.
Sorry couchmaster, they beat you to it.
[ducking...]
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Gene
climber
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The first HD bolter was from Scotland. How can Haggis live with himself?
Geo. Anderson took a week on his FA according to Roper in Camp 4.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I think you are missing the point that George Anderson's cable route was put in 'ground up'. I think that says it all.
Bruce
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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And to think that I'll likely get famous in a mag. for a chop.
Jody's evil twin.
As opposed to being infamous here on ST for being a hack.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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They even bolted over an existing route!!
Good one, K-man!
Yeah, you'd think that after bolting over his route the NPS would have the decency to patch behind themselves. Jeez!
I mean, show some respect and set an example for the future for all us benighted souls and (sub-) human climbers.
But they're still there, and you can find them, especially up high between the cables. We found and filmed one of Old George's original holes that still had the stub of one of his bolts in it.
Incidentally, if you're in the neighborhood with a rope and gear you can climb outside the cables w/o touching them at max 5.5. My kids loved it. (Dang! There I go making routes for other people again. I owe it all to this thread that I now understand how morally reprehensible that can be...)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Bruce wrote: I think you are missing the point that George Anderson's cable route was put in 'ground up'. I think that says it all.
Bruce
No...your missing the point that ground is not alway best. That blotch jobs happen ground up and on rappel that maybe sometimes in certain situations doing it pre-inspection and from the top saves the rock from numerous un-needed placements.
DR wrote: I owe it all to this thread that I now understand how morally reprehensible that can be...)
Doesn't the Taliban think that women who drive car are morally wrong, men who drink and women that show their face morally wrong.
Unbelievable that some people on this thread think it morally wrong to place a rap-placed bolt on a wall but not a ground up one.
Sick...if you ask me.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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DR said a while back,
"I think that's part of this equation that some of you aren't quite seeing yet: That we gave up our personal FA experience, traded it away "
i can hear GW now to the iraqi's. i didnt want to sacrifice american lives for your freedom but thats part of the equation some of you are not getting, i chose to kill some of you and some americans to give you freedom.
BS DR. no offense, i dont have an issue with your route. i do have an issue with you guys thinking that you were sacrificing your experienc for mine. i call complete BS on that one...
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Now there you go again, Bob.
Focusing on the quality of the route, as if that mattered.
Reaganesque :-)
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Gene: its your climbing and your ethics, you guys have to make up your own minds.
lots of the original climbers are British, i don't hold my community accountable for their actions, eg the Matterhorn, Everest, 2nd acent of Mont Blanc (first was a local for money in competition i believe but the French know nothing about ethics). we had a large bolting spree in the 80ies and before and we still have problems with bolting and style arguments today but the community remains solid after these events.
the really interesting argument is: when i am climbing in Yosemite as a brit, am allowed to nail a route? It is not within the ethics of my community and is damaging the way i have been brought up so maybe not. however can i adopt the ethics of the area i am in and nail away? i sort of feel that when i pound a nail into el cap that i am damaging my upbringing as a clean climber.
sh!t i may have to re climb Zodiac - what ever will i do
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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DR wrote
"Incidentally, if you're in the neighborhood with a rope and gear you can climb outside the cables w/o touching them at max 5.5. My kids loved it"
Why didn't you name THAT one "Growing Up"?
Peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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DR....I think you next movie should be of Fat, Bruce and Joe doing your route and then climbing a new one on the South Face ground up.
I would pay good money to see that.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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maybe one of the experts cans set me straight:
if i 5th class it outside the of cables, is it more offensive to rap Growing Up, or to walk down the cables w/ the sheeple?
thanks in advance!
EDIT
the route now exists
it will either stand or it will be erased
internet discussion is just that and nothing more
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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449 and...
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Karl, isn't that route "Kids Posing for Tourists"?
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Fattrad,
Is this route getting chopped on lead?
-JR
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I was never good enough to ride the Tour de France. Should the Tour de France build me an escalator so I can go up the climbs as fast as Lance Armstrong?
If I am not good enough to do climbs like Southern Belle and Autobahn, should somebody rap bolt a route on the South Face of Half Dome just so I can climb on it?
Bruce
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