The Flames.

I really can't remember when it was 81 or 86 seems more likely the later with BIG Al and his girl Katie Wilkerson. ( I also flashed Silent Scream,----)
. I was tagging along in typical Gnome fashion. The locals had been having fun trying to see if I'd cheese grater or crater - Go cartwheeling off the end of the traverse.
I did neither, linked the last 2 pitches. Then went on & led Solid Gold the same day.

I was a floor resident at Gordos for two weeks? I can't be sure. But the locals will know.
Scott Cosgrove was there at Gordos. I think part of the time?
I remember meeting Scott and trying to get him to share a rope.
He declined day in and day out eventually soloing my objective
in front of me, -the Right Ski Track-


 Both , Figures . . . . & Solid Gold. . . Some real estate
A proud day to be sure.


My old Gnome memory....not that I was blessed with a good memory chip anyway, and buds
did not help the cause.....
The things I remember Most were that the locals still were not impressed or maybe they were. It was at a time when in the the Olympics were in LA? ( now I'm not sure of year again, '84?)
I fancied my self a barer of the vulgarian torch from the Gunks.
I wanted to name a climb The Ole' Limp Prick Rings.
At the time Big Al an' Gordo knew politics And Randy Vogel.
I don't think Randy smoked or liked off-color names, Todd told me that. So we had come up with a name - politically correct, and relevant to the news of the day.
It was when then Pres Ronny Ray Gunn, had started to call his line item veto power
 Pocket Veto - -https://www.mountainproject.com/v/pocket-veto/105859263
That is how the name was picked Gordo And Big Al and I named it.
but I led the FA of that Rigg - without the bolt, we had agreed,I think, Gordo went back & added it ?
I was glad the bolt was there the next time, (the next year? ) that I did it.
It was solid 5.10 & very R/X on the FA, without the bolt.

The things I can rember was that Cossgroves spelling was weak on his 3X5 cards, where we recorded FA's for Todd to pass to Randy . I can't remember if I met Vogel?
If we met it was when he came over to the Gordo Ranch to pick up the 3x5 cards with the harvest of new routes on them, is this ringing any bells?

quote | flag Owen David,

Now that I have read all of this thread ...

Up thread you said:
Shame the FA is too afraid to touch this...pretty much says it all.

I would never hide from someone such as yourself.

You should have contacted me privately and asked me to join in here, as was suggested by Rob T, very early in this discussion.
It's silly to assume I have any idea whatsoever what you guys talk about here on Mountain Project.

I am permanently injured and all of my written communication must happen through voice activated software. I don't even frequent Super Topo very much anymore.

You ran down at least two people who posted up thread, for being me.
I don't sneak around and I don't troll.

Before I continue, I feel it's only fair I point these things out. Roy Mc
From Nederland, CO
Joined Dec 26, 2010
1 points
Roy Mc
5 hours ago
quote | flag WALL OF TEXT ALERT!!!
Popcorn or maybe a long nap highly recommended.

It should now be well established that Negro Girls never existed as a route name for the route to the right of Walk on the Wild Side, as far as the route's author is concerned. The author of the route, Kurt Smith, doesn't know anything about that name. The route is called "Us and Them". A Pink Floyd reference.


In response to Mr. David's follow-up questions:


For starters, none of my FA's are in the purple 1986 Randy Vogel Joshua Tree guide and it's the only one I own. I have never investigated subsequent guides to see how my JT FA's are listed. Randy Vogel has assured me he has all of my routes, but I have never done any follow-up. Most of my first ascents are obscure grain piles, so it's of marginal interest to me. (A Movable Feast on Hemingway Buttress is good, do that one. So is Automatic Tiger, a route I did with Walt Shipley).

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LIMP WRISTED FAGGOT

I am the Limp Wristed Faggot. As Mr. Lawry intuited, the chosen name was an expression of self-deprecation. Granted, that's not very enlightened, as it is essentially still homophobic in its derivation. Teenage boys in the 70s routinely bantered this way. We were all homophobes, even if we didn't actually judge homosexuals themselves. At age 24, when I did the route, I was just beginning to come out of this. It's just how we talked and acted. We were silly, ridiculous, and yes, often hurtful. Counterculture angst and all of that fun stuff.

In spring of 1984 when I did the route, I was coming off of a frostbite injury to my fingers and it was a route I thought I should have been able to flash, on-sight. I couldn't, I wound up top roping it. I was very angry that I had let myself get injured so fundamentally as a climber and so early in life, pursuing what was to be, and would become, my life's work. Corny, but true.

I completed the original top rope of LWF with Michael Paul. He said, "Whoa, Limp Wristed Faggot ... That's an edgy route name. There's a double entendre to it though, Roy. The Britts call cigarettes fags. You were so pumped (limp wristed) you couldn't even hold a cigarette (faggot)." For the record, it was the weight of a joint which bent my wrist back, not a cigarette. I know children might be reading this, too bad.

So Mike Paul liked the name, because he knew people who are prone to making hasty judgments might jump to conclusions about some homophobic derivation, (which it was initially), but that if they were a bit more worldly, they might understand the connection to British cigarette slang. To Mike, the name was a trap for presumptuous types. We were all about being well-traveled, so that was his approach to it.

Did I really think that would hold water? No.

Mike Lechlinski actually got the first lead. He didn't care about the route name and didn't think it should be reconsidered. You would have been appalled to listen to the gnarly tone and tenor of our average chiding with one another BITD. Seriously, we were total brats. Irreverence was part of what we were all about. There was no Internet. Climbing was nothing like it is now. It was not even close to becoming mainstream. Yes, context is everything.

In fact, and here's the good part, Randy Vogel, at the time of the FA, 1984, told me he thought I would regret the name LWF. He actually changed the name to Thin Line. Thin Line! How boring is that we all thought? Whatever. I figured Vogel was probably doing me a favor so I just let Thin Line stand. It wasn't until very recently that Randy told me he regretted censoring me, and that he had restored the route name to its original state.

In the modern context, I knew this might be trouble, but I didn't think about it until this dustup about Negro Girls got brought to my attention (yesterday). I knew Limp Wristed Faggot would become the caboose on this train.

How's all of that for irony?

Not long after I named that route, a young woman whom I respected very much, said to me "You should be careful how you talk about homosexuals, Roy. You never know who might be one." Being that I actually never had any problem with homosexuality, and that I strive to be sincere in all my dealings with people, I really got what she was saying, and I grew up.

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COLORED GIRLS

As for Colored Girls, I just don't see that as bad, in any context. I grew up in the 1970s. Few from my generation would see that as lacking context, specifically I'm talking about Lou Reed's song.

I did do a first ascent of a route named Colored Girls, in the Real Hidden Valley, with Lorenzo Di Bonaventura, Saturday, March 11, 1989. I have no idea whether or not it made it into a guidebook, or that we stayed with that name. A quick search on this website brought nothing for Colored Girls. My notes only list the route name, partner, and date. Details come from memory.

"And the color girls go..." was a prominent phrase in the cultural/musical lexicon of the times. It was playful and it's still sweet when you hear it. My partner, a guided client, suggested the name Colored Girls. Of course we knew the reference to Lou Reed but even that wasn't so important. The name selection was predicated upon whimsy, and nothing else.

To my mind, Kurt Smith's route, "Us and Them" vs. "Colored Girls" is uninspiring. It was never named Negro Girls, as far as Kurt Smith and I know. That just sounds clunky and coarse. We can only guess that was Woody Stark, and who knows where he got it from. To my mind, a hypothetical route adjacent to Walk on the Wild Side absolutely ought to be named "Colored Girls". Totally apropos. But as far as I know, I already have a route named Colored Girls.

Again, I don't even know if I can find the actual Colored Girls route. I thought it was on The Wart, in the Real Hidden Valley. I looked at pictures of that formation and I'm not so sure anymore.

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Initially, a route name is nothing more than a bauble you roll around in your palm for consideration. It's not even the climb. It's a cultural artifact. Where that name selection eventually settles can be something almost completely arbitrary.

We 1970s/1980s climbers were an irreverent bunch, sorry about that. Thanks for your concern!

But, Thin Line? Personally, I find that so bland as to be offensive. Ha ha.

Now, with this thread, we have a whole new context from which to glean a more socially acceptable moniker for Limp Wristed Faggot.

How about we call it: The Inquisition?



Happy Sailing All,
Roy McClenahan