Joshua Tree Accident

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WBraun

climber

Mar 22, 2009 - 02:02pm PT

So locker is indirectly giving the report ....?

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Mar 22, 2009 - 02:03pm PT

It was already reported (elsewhere) several days ago...

S.Powers

Social climber

Jtree, now in Alaska

Mar 22, 2009 - 02:05pm PT

"We as climbers need and disserve to know"

A "Need" is something we need to survive, TGT and others would have let us know if something about this accident was a "need". Deserve, I believe is what you meant, and why do we deserve anything? we earned nothing, in fact all we did was lose. It's funny you typed the word disserve because it means to treat poorly, or provide bad service. I think pressing people to do something they are not comfortable with, at a time like this, will do nothing but disserve the climbing community as a whole.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Mar 22, 2009 - 02:20pm PT

I'm struggling to resist stating the obvious, because I'll have a bunch of people hating me...

climber

Cardiff by the sea

Mar 22, 2009 - 02:29pm PT

Yes S.Powers That is a typo on my part. I intended to use the word deserve.

I feel we as climbers deserve to know because even if as we all know "complacency kills" If ever go in in this fasion please all be reminded on my behalf.

All I have tried to say is we need to know. I never said anything about when. It is only my opinion that I voiced. I am sorry to offend anyone not my intention.

Locker: I get the feeling you are yelling at me for doing this. I have tied to expressed nothing but respect in my posts and if you think otherwise, sorry. I don't want to upset you in paticular to much considering you have a pair of my favorite shoes.

I wouldn't even be on this damn computer today if it wasn't raining out.

Reilly

Mountain climber

Monrovia, CA

Mar 22, 2009 - 02:59pm PT

I'm so glad Tami won't have to get the pencils out...

Curt

Boulder climber

Gilbert, AZ

Mar 22, 2009 - 03:05pm PT

Nature abhors a vacuum and people will continue to draw their own conclusions and speculate until something more factually detailed is provided--that's just human nature. This is the general type of thing that is needed:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1322341

The point is not to assess blame or cast anyone in a poor light. The point is to figure out exactly what happened and what lessons might be learned.

Curt

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Mar 22, 2009 - 03:06pm PT

I was very accident-prone as a kid. I have plenty of scars to prove it.
I'm STILL accident prone - always banging my head on things, ect.

I was still pretty new to climbing when Mike Sofranko was killed in a rappelling accident.
I only knew him from his posts on rec.climbing (and in fact we engaged in a few flame-wars).
I needed to know what happened. Yes, I NEEDED to know for my sake and for the sake of others.
After my request for info went unheeded, a rec.climber was kind enough to e-mail the details.

It's too bad the details were never made public, because it HELPED ME IMMENSELY.

A good friend of mine was tying his knot at the gym when he was distracted by some bimbo
flirting with him (in front of his girlfriend!). As a result of the distraction, he failed to finish his
tie-in knot, and when he got to the top, he leaned back, and fell 30 feet, landing on a wooden bench.
His injuries were hideous, even worse than my tib/fib compound fracture that left a 16 inch scar.
He needed lots of surgery, and very nearly lost his leg due to complications.

Ever since, I have been freakishly obsessive about checking, double-checking, and triple-checking
tie-in knots, and made sure that I weighted the rope atop a climb WHILE STILL HOLDING ON
before committing to a rappel or being lowered. It seems elementary, but lots of people just
blithely sit back at the top of a climb without CONFIRMING that they are being held by the rope!

Sorry if this offends anybody by it being posted to this thread.

This stuff (still) happens all the time, and the more people freaked out about it, the better.

RIP Woody!

climber

Cardiff by the sea

Mar 22, 2009 - 03:23pm PT

Yea I hear ya locker and I am aware of how touchy the subject matter is. I did not have the pleasure of knowing woody but felt a sense of loss just the same.

I remember when I got plucked off of never never land back in 04' when the japaneese folks died. I was bombarded with reporters after getting out of chopper paparazzi style asking about details. Never knowing the climbers that lost there life, I still felt a deep sense of loss just the same. All the media cameras got fromm me for the evening news was my middle finger. It was actualy kind of funny, they where so bumbed we wouldn't talk to them. But on the same hand I wanted to know why and how the fallen climbers parished. Turns out that exposer to the elements is what got them. We all know how not having the right clothes and sleeping arrangements can kill ya, but a sombering reminder is allways welcome in my book.

"Your AOK in my book to Locker"

Mtnmun

Trad climber

Top of the Mountain Mun

Mar 22, 2009 - 03:23pm PT

A lot of beating around the bush here. WTF Happened?

I have had this accident on my mind all week. My friend in S&R carried Woody out. I feel bad for all of you who were close to Woody and his loving family. It's a tragedy in real time.

Largo

Sport climber

Venice, Ca

Mar 22, 2009 - 03:33pm PT

While there are many opinions about what to do, or not do (per an accident report), and rather strong moral and ethical judgements assumed by some viewpoints, there is also an autonomous drive for the truth to be divulged. It's easy for me to be patient with all of this because I already know all the details, having debriefed Al(fred) over the phone. However I do understand the growing restlessness by some, which to me, is simply that autonomous drive after truth, no matter how indecorous it might seem to some amongst us.

Of course all of our reactions and opinions and judgements are purely subjective - there is no objective right or wrong, better or worse, respectful or disrespectful. It's all just people wondering and thinking and feeling out loud, and when that happens, blaming and accusing sometime enter the picture. That's just how we roll as people. At least here the judgements didn't get toxic like they did over on RC.com.

A tradegy does get us thinking about things, about what is dear to us, and that is perhaps more important than the technical details of an accident. There's also a lot of trepediation involved in putting anything down paper that might somehow reflect poorly on the living or the dead. Anyone who has had to draft such a document knows exactly what I mean. You can never get it "right." That's why it usually takes so long to draft out these things.

JL

TYeary

climber

Mar 22, 2009 - 05:38pm PT

Thanks, John.
It is just how we roll as people.
I appreciate your words.
Tony

Jaybro

Social climber

wuz real!

Mar 22, 2009 - 05:40pm PT

I think that here we see the dichotomy between the type A and type B, personality...

Chiloe

Trad climber

Lee, NH

Mar 22, 2009 - 06:11pm PT

Mtnmun:
I have had this accident on my mind all week.

I have too, though I know nothing about it. The day after I heard the news I was feeling
sketchy on a lead, continually narrating my own accident report...
"The climber should have placed more protection ... tested holds more carefully ...
brought larger cams ... not climbed while distracted ..."

It's very natural for many of us to want to know just what happened, that's not a sign
of bad character or disrespect. Although each accident unfolds differently, we've
been through this before.

holly hansen

Trad climber

I.E., CA.

Mar 22, 2009 - 07:34pm PT

I wondered what happened last weekend when I first heard the sirens. Then the chopper... That is so sad. I always hate to hear of these mishaps. It will remind me to wear my helmet, and to have fun climbing and enjoy my partners' company.

Crimpergirl

Social climber

Boulder, Colorado!

Mar 23, 2009 - 02:01pm PT

We are still waiting on the facts. They are promised in the next week or so.

midarockjock

climber

USA

Mar 23, 2009 - 02:32pm PT

Largo,
government noted by college philosophy classes has long been
determined to not be a reliable source of information.

Locker,
good to see this :-) from you here.

Vogel,
It's probably deserving of X just as Woody said and I
also know R's away from JT where the crux is not the R
section.

RIP Woody

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Mar 23, 2009 - 02:38pm PT

I hesitate to post on this, but after watching this thread for the past few days, I will say this. A few days after the accident Barbara and I invited Al and Tony over to our home for dinner. The purpose was not to “debrief” Al or to find out what happened unless he wanted to talk about it. We just wanted to create a warm and supportive environment for a friend in distress.

I found out that evening and since then that Woody’s family and friends have been very kind and supportive to Al, and I want to congratulate them for their kindness and their desire to pull together. This shows us the brotherhood of the climbing community at its best and I am in awe.

After talking with Al, it is still not clear to me what happened exactly. I am not sure it is entirely clear to anyone. Sometimes the simplest things go wrong for very complicated reasons. This is why we should not rush for the “story” here. For the sake of those close to Woody, for Al, and surely for those who want to learn something from this awful incident it is of prime importance the facts be presented correctly.

Patience.

I apologize if this is out of line. If I am stepping on any toes let me know and I’ll pull it pronto…