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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 11, 2008 - 02:45am PT
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I am neither a Saab, nor a Mongoose, not even a Corolla, sometimes. and nothing in between.
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coiler
Trad climber
The Rock Monkey Ranch
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Nov 11, 2008 - 08:33am PT
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Yes, here we vote... But not about peoples freedoms to choose. It was illegal to ask people to vote on what they think about a moral question (freedom of religion). We're all going to answer that question differently, we have a right to choose who or what we want to marry. This is not or shouldn't ever be up for a popular vote! Again, it's only the cristians who give a crap about whomever I or anyone else marries. In the end, it's none of their business. The bigots will fade into obscurity like all the others before them. Cristianity is suppsed to teach tolerance, I guess they all forgot about Jesus' lessons. It's tough to see through hate though, I feel compasion for the cristians' and their tiny little minds. Someday that religion will grow up!
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 11, 2008 - 09:34am PT
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Coiler writes:
"This is not or shouldn't ever be up for a popular vote!"
Did you vote on Prop 8?
Or did you leave that one blank, like I did?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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"The" Coiler says --- "The bigots will fade into obscurity like all the others before them."
That's what happened to you, with all your bigoted bullsh'it about bolts and what not. You're also classic case of an atheist who has no clue what a real Christian is telling them what they should be doing.
You're an idiot of the highest nature.
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Josh
Trad climber
Watsonville, CA
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Nov 11, 2008 - 12:24pm PT
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"It would be helpful .. if in .. all .. democratic discourse we could resist the temptation to impute bad faith to those who disagree with us." Barack Obama
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 11, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
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If the court had stayed out of it, Prop 8 probably would have failed. I know, for a fact, that some voters voted for it because they wanted to send a message to the court that democracy should decide these issues, and they shouldn't be decided by judicial fiat. I didn't vote one way or the other because I never received my ballot. I applied five days before the deadline and waited until the third when I left for RR.
Gay marriage isn't an issue for me one way or the other. It's an issue I don't care about. I would, however, have voted yes for the reason above.
I do believe that it will become acceptable in the future, and that's fine with me; but I'm fed up with the courts forcing social change in areas that need time for the populace to evolve toward acceptance.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 11, 2008 - 01:23pm PT
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Werner wrote
"This whole thread is based on bodily consciousness.
Since we are not this material body thus the aim of this discussion to come to a real understanding is incomplete.
You will all just tax your brains over this either way it goes, (Prop 8 for or against), and never come to a satisfactory conclusion. "
There's a lot of body consciousness involved in our physical lives my friend. You choose what your eat and who you marry.
And Werner, you got married right, and not to have kids either. So...?
Restricting marriage based on body consciousness is a problem. Have you been a male in all your lives?
Peace
karl
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 11, 2008 - 01:26pm PT
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"Find a battle more worth fighting (other) than denying that queers love one another and are going to live in sin or not, per their own agenda. Their only mistake is to act like the Find a battle more worth fighting than denying that queers love one another and are going to live in sin or not, per their own agenda. Their only mistake is to act like the surrounding culture is got any control over them at all.
Pretty much the whole shooting match right there.
Barring what the Old Testiment said about homosexuality, can anyone name one credible, current day, studied source that says sexual identity is a choice? Who would choose to be gay, with all the guff they take?
JL
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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""It would be helpful .. if in .. all .. democratic discourse we could resist the temptation to impute bad faith to those who disagree with us." Barack Obama "
Some issues really do have hateful undercurrents. This is one of them. I see nothing wrong with calling bigotry for what it is.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Nov 11, 2008 - 03:37pm PT
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I say that we all have biases toward the group that we associate with most. This, more often than not, leads to group behaviors and personal behaviors that we (read 'you') don't realize that we (read 'you') can do.
In other words, for any one person, there are any number of biases, none of which can be none until put to the test....
For this I have recentlt heard about a text site that gauges these biases for people in the privacy of their own homes. I have been told that to take a test at this site can be disturbing to the test taker.
Beware!
So, I say GO to the Site: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/selectatest.html
TAKE THE TEST labelled "Sexuality IAT" (https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/Study?tid=-1);, take all distractions away, and take the test.
I think that finding out just how biased you are can be a great learning experience. This knowledge can give insight into your own mind and given this info you can see what it is that you may need help with.
I need to take the religion test, but will have to wait until I have the time.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2008 - 03:38pm PT
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"If the court had stayed out of it, Prop 8 probably would have failed. I know, for a fact, that some voters voted for it because they wanted to send a message to the court that democracy should decide these issues, and they shouldn't be decided by judicial fiat. I didn't vote one way or the other because I never received my ballot. I applied five days before the deadline and waited until the third when I left for RR.
Gay marriage isn't an issue for me one way or the other. It's an issue I don't care about. I would, however, have voted yes for the reason above. "
Bullsh#t.
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smyth
climber
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Nov 11, 2008 - 04:34pm PT
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Prop 8 passed simply because lots of people are tired of being told they must affirm and celebrate homosexuality, and that if they don't then they're bigots, scum or religious whackos. Most supporters are fine with other people living any way they want, they'd even be willing to allow gay marriage, but they're afraid it won't end there. Why? Things like:
 school textbooks with chapters on famous gays but nothing about George Washington
mandatory "sensitivity training" at work
church services interrupted by condom-throwing activists
parades and rallies with lewd behavior designed specifically to shock and repulse, and chants of "we're here, we're queer, we're in your face"
TV shows and movies with only hip, cool gay characters and lame, repressed straights
kindergarten teachers getting their 5-year old students to sign cards pledging not to use anti-gay slurs
The list goes on and on, to the point that eventually people get tired of it, and you end up with ballot initiatives passed in 29 states, with more to come. Simple as that.
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smyth
climber
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Nov 11, 2008 - 04:53pm PT
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Maybe partly true in CA, but these initiatives haven't passed in 29 out of 29 states they've been voted on because of "lies, deception and out of state contributions". Gotta be more to it than that.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2008 - 04:58pm PT
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Yeah, it was because of fear and hatred, that's why.
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smyth
climber
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Nov 11, 2008 - 05:45pm PT
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Thanks for making my point dirt - "If you don't support gay marriage, its only because you're irrationally afraid and a hater". That's exactly what people are tired of.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 11, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
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Judicial fiat Woody? Really? So tell me....if a court's job isn't to interpret laws then what exactly are they for? You're living in a fantasy land.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Nov 11, 2008 - 06:06pm PT
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http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/1/7.html
There you have the federal definition of marriage, husband, wife, spouse, etc.
So here is a little quiz:
Which president signed this into law?
What was the vote in the Senate?
What was the vote in the House?
By the way, there was zero pork in this law. It is one of the shorter bills ever passed and signed into law. Only affects two sections of the United States Code.
Then consider what happens when a state decides to make the definition.
You are married until you cross a border then you aren't depending on what state you end up in.
There is a case in which a man changed gender to a woman and married a man who was fully aware of it . After 10 years "she" died. A child of the husband sued to have the marriage "unrecognized" so that he would be entitled to half of a 2.5 million dollar estate. Kansas and Texas law are not consistent, and who knows what it is elsewhere.
Seems like this issue should be decided at the federal level. It could be set there by a majority passage of a law in Congress and signature by the President (or override a veto), or it could go the route of the 13th Amendment and establish a change in marriage as a right.
But for now, for federal purposes, tax purposes, and even enforcement of issues between states, marriage, husband, and wife have a specific meaning in the entire United States.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 11, 2008 - 06:06pm PT
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"Gotta be more to it than that."
-Later day saint's with strongarm money, preying on the uncomfortable?
-just a thought.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2008 - 06:07pm PT
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"Thanks for making my point dirt - "If you don't support gay marriage, its only because you're irrationally afraid and a hater". That's exactly what people are tired of. "
Oh cry me a river. Thanks to Prop 8 and similar laws, gay people are treated as second class citizens.
Don't like the "irrationally afraid and a hater" label? Well, you guys earned it.
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tamberly
Trad climber
san diego
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Nov 11, 2008 - 06:10pm PT
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well... as my dad would say... you're entitled to your opinion "just keep it to yourself" (ITS A JOKE) but all jokes aside... how would you feel being restricted as to whom you could marry or not regardless if its a man or woman.... Feelings are feelings, not bad not good not right or wrong.. I ain't got no tolerance...for people with no tolerance!
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