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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Well, I'd say there's some difference between investing in the stock of a company that actually produces things. You can look at the company's performance, composition and the market that they are in.
That type of analysis is much harder or impossible for cryptocurrencies. Level of risk and volatility is much higher.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Bitcoin was born in part as a response to the banking crises in 2008. Many people who invest in Bitcoin are tired of central bank shenanigans and the devaluing of fiat currencies. There is value in having a borderless,permissionless, decentralized, censorship resistant form of currency. What is that value? I don't know, only time will tell,but I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 15, 2019 - 10:13am PT
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JPMorgan Chase Moves to Be First Big U.S. Bank With Its Own Cryptocurrency
'In 2017, Jamie Dimon, JPMorgan Chase’s chief executive, declared Bitcoin a “fraud” and said that any employee caught trading it would be fired for being “stupid.”
On Thursday, JPMorgan became the first major United States bank to introduce its own digital token for real-world use, the latest step in Wall Street’s evolving approach to the blockchain technology that underpins cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ether.
Despite questioning Bitcoin’s legitimacy, Mr. Dimon has said he recognizes blockchain’s potential in the future of the global financial system. And JPMorgan has already released a blockchain platform, Quorum, that several institutions are using to keep track of financial data...'
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 15, 2019 - 10:53am PT
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Your constant attempts to portray Bitcoin investors as greedy gamblers is akin to your average touron thinking climbers are just adrenaline junkies.
Yer inability to see the truth in both those portrayals shows there’s no hope for you. Sorry.
Yes, banks suck, but at least you can usually get yer money out of them.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Feb 15, 2019 - 12:11pm PT
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Yer inability to see the truth in both those portrayals shows there’s no hope for you. Sorry.
Yes, banks suck, but at least you can usually get yer money out of them.
Yes, there are people in Bitcoin just hoping to get rich quick just like there are climbers who are adrenaline junkies. But there is a whole lot more going on with Bitcoin just like there is a whole lot more to climbing than just what the public thinks. Perhaps it is your inability to see past the click bait headlines that is holding you back from seeing the bigger picture.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Feb 15, 2019 - 12:22pm PT
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JPMorgan Chase Moves to Be First Big U.S. Bank With Its Own Cryptocurrency
'In 2017, Jamie Dimon, JPMorgan Chase’s chief executive, declared Bitcoin a “fraud” and said that any employee caught trading it would be fired for being “stupid.”
On Thursday, JPMorgan became the first major United States bank to introduce its own digital token for real-world use, the latest step in Wall Street’s evolving approach to the blockchain technology that underpins cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ether.
Despite questioning Bitcoin’s legitimacy, Mr. Dimon has said he recognizes blockchain’s potential in the future of the global financial system. And JPMorgan has already released a blockchain platform, Quorum, that several institutions are using to keep track of financial data...'
Yes, pretty funny but not unexpected. I had mentioned last year that all the negative talk from bankers about Bitcoin and crypto was just a smoke screen while they were feverishly working behind the scenes to get in on the action.
Of course, JPMorgan Coin has nothing to do with Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin is permissionless, trustless, decentralized and borderless. JPMorgan Coin is permissioned, trusting, centralized and bordered.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 15, 2019 - 12:52pm PT
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it is your inability to see past the click bait headlines that is holding you back from seeing the bigger picture.
Dood! Grab a paper bag and breathe into it! Nice and easy. Yer taking this way too seriously! Besides, what you are also missing is that I’m trying to help you. Really!
The “big picture”? That nitcoin is gonna save us from the evil banks?
Banks are just a fact of life - deal with it.
The “big picture” that zitcoin is a rational investment? What else am I missing? Do tell.
If it is so clear to you then you should be easily able to explain it to a crankloon.
Start with why I need (or should want) Bitchcoin. Remember, make it simple.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Feb 15, 2019 - 01:27pm PT
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Yes, there are people in Bitcoin just hoping to get rich quick just like there are climbers who are adrenaline junkies. But there is a whole lot more going on with Bitcoin just like there is a whole lot more to climbing than just what the public thinks.
I have no idea about what's going on with bitcoin, other than it's steadily dropped in value over the last 14 months.
Bitcoin futures began trading on 12/17/17. It traded right up to $20,000 on that date. Today, it's trading at $3555.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 15, 2019 - 01:39pm PT
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Chase is using a blockchain technology to back a method for doing very large international monetary transfers faster and in a more on-demand way than is possible with SWIFT.
This is not a cryptocurrency and is neither a consumer tool or an investment vehicle.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Feb 15, 2019 - 02:50pm PT
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EdwardT- Nice cherry picking just like in the climate change thread. Bitcoin started 10 years ago at a fraction of a penny. It continues to make higher highs and higher lows during it's cycles. It's doing just fine.
SteveP- I agree. Calling it a crypto is a joke, but they sure are marketing it that way. Replacing Swift is long overdue. XRP was hoping to do that, but now is dead man walking(which is a good thing), with Chase entering the field.
Reilly- I get that you like to troll, but when you post lazy, incorrect articles or say a bunch of nonsense, I'm going to respond because there are people who read threads for information. You may think it's a bunch of crap, but others may not. Heck, even the doubters may learn a thing or two.
You say "banks suck, deal with it". Well, other people don't want to just deal with it. We believe there is better concept of what we call money and how the banking system works. Every generation from now on will grow up in a digital world and look back on current money and banking like we look back at trading beads and shells.
Why Bitcoin? Because I don't need anybody's permission for how, where, when and why I use it. I don't need to trust someone else to hold it for me. It is censorship resistant and can't be confiscated. It is borderless, I can take it anywhere. You may not care about any of these things, but plenty of do.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Feb 21, 2019 - 01:43pm PT
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https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612974/once-hailed-as-unhackable-blockchains-are-now-getting-hacked/
Look carefully at the 51% hacks, and what that means for who is going to best be able to game the system.
This concept would seem to indicate that the largest cryptocurrencies are going to be the most protected from these attacks and thus more safe place to park money. It would indicate some market pressures for different exchanges to consolidate for the protection of scale.
But look how the U.S. military outspends the world to effectively deal with the same thing- to be able to maintain control. Don't you think someone is out there trying to do the same thing with even the biggest cryptocurrencies? If you combine brute force compute with espionage to control other bitcoin miners, seems like someone with a lot more money than moral inhibitions and a decent vision can make a huge multiple return on their investment.
Even if currencies try to roll back to an earlier time point before a hack, there are going to be winners and losers and not all participants will want to roll back, and it will trigger a fork like the Etherium vs. Etherium Classic. This process itself renders all participants more vulnerable to future attacks because it takes less compute power to dominate the two smaller distributed databases that remain.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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Feb 21, 2019 - 02:24pm PT
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Why Bitcoin? Because I don't need anybody's permission for how, where, when and why I use it. I don't need to trust someone else to hold it for me. It is censorship resistant and can't be confiscated. It is borderless, I can take it anywhere. You may not care about any of these things, but plenty of do.
Is this so? Exchanges and places that sell coins in general have restrictions on who can trade/buy there and want to ID the person even heavier than banks do for new accounts now. Many won't deal with Americans at all.
Coins can be confiscated for sure...in a sense that court can order to pay USD, and then it's your problem if you want to cash out your coins or get the money somewhere else: they'll get it. Taxes on multiple currencies trading are going to be a nightmare, since recently, by the way. Governments ain't fools to let the shadow economy get too big and let tax revenue escape... If cryptocurrencies stay, they'll be regulated and tracked as much as regular currencies, eventually.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Feb 21, 2019 - 03:56pm PT
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Is this so? Exchanges and places that sell coins in general have restrictions on who can trade/buy there and want to ID the person even heavier than banks do for new accounts now. Many won't deal with Americans at all.
Coins can be confiscated for sure...in a sense that court can order to pay USD, and then it's your problem if you want to cash out your coins or get the money somewhere else: they'll get it. Taxes on multiple currencies trading are going to be a nightmare, since recently, by the way. Governments ain't fools to let the shadow economy get too big and let tax revenue escape... If cryptocurrencies stay, they'll be regulated and tracked as much as regular currencies, eventually.
Coinbase alone has over 25 million accounts, so plenty of Americans are willing to deal with the hassle to own some Bitcoin. That being said, there are plenty of ways to buy, sell, trade Bitcoin without ever having to dox yourself.
Nice try on "confiscating" Bitcoin.
Of course the government wants their piece, and they will get some by blending it into the fabric of Wall St. But Bitcoin has no CEO, no corporate HQ, no nation or board of directors. You might be able to regulate it somewhat in between your own borders, but good luck with the rest of the world.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Feb 21, 2019 - 04:53pm PT
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https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612974/once-hailed-as-unhackable-blockchains-are-now-getting-hacked/
Look carefully at the 51% hacks, and what that means for who is going to best be able to game the system.
This concept would seem to indicate that the largest cryptocurrencies are going to be the most protected from these attacks and thus more safe place to park money. It would indicate some market pressures for different exchanges to consolidate for the protection of scale.
But look how the U.S. military outspends the world to effectively deal with the same thing- to be able to maintain control. Don't you think someone is out there trying to do the same thing with even the biggest cryptocurrencies? If you combine brute force compute with espionage to control other bitcoin miners, seems like someone with a lot more money than moral inhibitions and a decent vision can make a huge multiple return on their investment.
Even if currencies try to roll back to an earlier time point before a hack, there are going to be winners and losers and not all participants will want to roll back, and it will trigger a fork like the Etherium vs. Etherium Classic. This process itself renders all participants more vulnerable to future attacks because it takes less compute power to dominate the two smaller distributed databases that remain.
Nut, good question and this is where the game theory of Bitcoin comes into play. The current hash rate of the Bitcoin network is about 44EH/s. That's 44,000,000,000,000,000,000 hashes per second. To accumulate the necessary hardware and electricity from scratch would cost Billions. Not going to happen.
Bribe enough miners to join your attack? They have a financial incentive to continue their own mining. They are not going to kill the golden goose.
But even if you are successful in your attack, once it is realised after the first block, you will be kicked off the network. You can continue mining your worthless NutCoin chain after having spent a billion dollars to mine one block while the rest of the world continues on with Bitcoin.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Feb 22, 2019 - 12:36pm PT
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Nut, to add to yesterday's post, a 51% attack is an expensive and poor way to try to make money. Once an attack is realized, and it will be immediate since everyone is watching Bitcoin, the exchanges will halt trading. Good luck trying to double spend when the exchanges won't let you. Meanwhile, you have expended a lot resources for very little, or no return. Its like a bank robber robbing a bank, only to find out that at best he got a bag of cash and at worst he got a bag of monopoly money. Meanwhile, the bank and all the accounts have moved elsewhere. A 51% attack is not a hack at all. It's just an attempted armed robbery. SHA 256 has not been broken. Bitcoin marches on.
As for the lesser coins, many in the crypto space are ok with them being attacked. The reason they are vulnerable is because they are sh*t and don't have the value for people to care enough about them to protect them like Bitcoin. If they go under, that's ok, it helps clean things up. Survival of the fittest.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 22, 2019 - 01:58pm PT
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If they go under, that's ok, it helps clean things up.
But what about the chillun?
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Feb 24, 2019 - 08:31pm PT
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Bargain-Yes, was going to post the article myself. Part of the problem is that people view Bitcoin thru "American" eyes and have a hard time seeing the use cases for it. But the reality is that a large portion of the world's population is unbanked/underbanked and/or living in politically and economically toxic situations. Bitcoin is a valuable tool to help people escape their dire situations.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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Coinbase alone has over 25 million accounts, so plenty of Americans are willing to deal with the hassle to own some Bitcoin. That being said, there are plenty of ways to buy, sell, trade Bitcoin without ever having to dox yourself.
Nice try on "confiscating" Bitcoin.
Of course the government wants their piece, and they will get some by blending it into the fabric of Wall St. But Bitcoin has no CEO, no corporate HQ, no nation or board of directors. You might be able to regulate it somewhat in between your own borders, but good luck with the rest of the world.
CBOE is pulling bitcoin futures...
Isn't Coinbase requiring heavy verification pretty much like anyone else? They have verification, even for address not just identity.
Do you know Kraken was previously not releasing funds to Americans asking for proof of how initial investment was earned (they didn't ask this for deposit...asked later for withdrawal)? They'll be reporting to IRS too now.
I don't think anyone with US IP can do anything crypto anonymously, and vpn addresses will be rejected I'm pretty sure on that one. (yes, I'm only talking about US persons here but pretty sure everyone else will be tracked in the same way soon....governments ain't fools). Banks in many countries do electronic info exchange now on fund movements (sooner or later one will need to cash their coins) and citizenship/residency data...good luck for regular Joe/Kumar moving anything unnoticed unless they're using banks so shady they might never get their funds back from them. One can't cash the coins in signifiant amounts without using good old bank system (unless they like cartel option)...and bank will freeze it all asking to explain where the funds are coming from (and non-US banks do this just fine).
people view Bitcoin thru "American" eyes and have a hard time seeing the use cases for it. But the reality is that a large portion of the world's population is unbanked/underbanked and/or living in politically and economically toxic situations. Bitcoin is a valuable tool to help people escape their dire situations. I'm sure they have access to secure computers and networks and money to buy coins (and meet transaction minimums). Hope they won't buy the cheap ones that will be de-listed next day. I'm also sure they're educated enough to be able to secure their pwds or keys. You just described hacker's dream. Since they don't have access to banking system to begin wth, I wonder how will they cash their orders...and or are they going to hold volatile asset (I hope not). If they can opt to hold onto anything it'll be USD cash I assure you (I know life in non-banked system and under hyperinflation well).
If there's any kind of anonymity left in crypto...one better use it now cause it won't be there tomorrow. (may be one can dump 1st world country citizenship for St Kitt and Nevis one and move to Bangladesh, though, to keep their privacy a little longer)
On another note... looks like pump'n'dump is running...it'll be a million by the end of the year :) Any guesses where the large order came from? Anonymity = market manipulation
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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CBOE is pulling bitcoin futures...
Isn't Coinbase requiring heavy verification pretty much like anyone else? They have verification, even for address not just identity.
Do you know Kraken was previously not releasing funds to Americans asking for proof of how initial investment was earned (they didn't ask this for deposit...asked later for withdrawal)? They'll be reporting to IRS too now.
I don't think anyone with US IP can do anything crypto anonymously, and vpn addresses will be rejected I'm pretty sure on that one. (yes, I'm only talking about US persons here but pretty sure everyone else will be tracked in the same way soon....governments ain't fools). Banks in many countries do electronic info exchange now on fund movements (sooner or later one will need to cash their coins) and citizenship/residency data...good luck for regular Joe/Kumar moving anything unnoticed unless they're using banks so shady they might never get their funds back from them. One can't cash the coins in signifiant amounts without using good old bank system (unless they like cartel option)...and bank will freeze it all asking to explain where the funds are coming from (and non-US banks do this just fine).
CBOE is pulling Bitcoin futures because the CME has been kicking its ass in the futures market.
Any exchange operating in the US will be doing KYC/AML and plenty of people don't mind doing it, thus 25 million Coinbase accounts. Lots of people just want exposure to Bitcoin and will use it in conjunction with current banking systems. But Bitcoin also provides the option to transact anonymously if one desires. If you think that one needs to expose ones IP to transact in Bitcoin, then you really need to do more research.
I'm sure they have access to secure computers and networks and money to buy coins (and meet transaction minimums). Hope they won't buy the cheap ones that will be de-listed next day. I'm also sure they're educated enough to be able to secure their pwds or keys. You just described hacker's dream. Since they don't have access to banking system to begin wth, I wonder how will they cash their orders...and or are they going to hold volatile asset (I hope not). If they can opt to hold onto anything it'll be USD cash I assure you (I know life in non-banked system and under hyperinflation well).
If there's any kind of anonymity left in crypto...one better use it now cause it won't be there tomorrow. (may be one can dump 1st world country citizenship for St Kitt and Nevis one and move to Bangladesh, though, to keep their privacy a little longer)
On another note... looks like pump'n'dump is running...it'll be a million by the end of the year :) Any guesses where the large order came from? Anonymity = market manipulation
LocalBitcoins does over $1 Million USD in Bitcoin transactions per week in Venezuela. This is done to escape hyperinflation and potential confiscation.
Betty Wambugu, a Kenyan woman, made enough money investing in Bitcoin to buy a hotel and restaurant in rural Kenya. She calls it Betty's Place. She regularly holds Bitcoin meetups and accepts Bitcoin for payment.
These are two real world examples of where Bitcoin is working to improve the lives of the underbanked and oppressed.
As for manipulation, what do you think the Fed does by changing interest rates and printing money out of thin air? That's manipulation. All markets are manipulated to one degree or another. The gov't pumps up the stock market thru its policies and thats ok. Bitcoin pumps and its that evil manipulation! Got it.
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