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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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JE was correct, I used the wrong words to express the bible
I should have used these words
"it's a fool's game to believe that the bible is the word of god"
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Craig you seem completely lacking in spiritual apprehension.......belief in god without proof.....then again, spiritual apprehension is a gift of god. Looks like you and me are in the same boat....not on god's gift list.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice, a style of living, and what you get out of it is proof enough.
I don't buy it!
Whithout no words we got no form. A "practice" or "style" are merely exercises of the form. Another words, A work expectant of reward. Your sounding like a chatholic. Lol.
But that's ok, just keep on asking someone else to ask God To forgive you and you should be alright!?
Would you consider that ^^^ a practice or a style?
Firstly, there's no middleman between man and God. Meaning, God is intimate with each individual. There are no steps(work) you gotta take to approach Jesus. Just saying His name brings Him to your doorstep.
Secondly, what would be the reason for pursuing a life in good "style" and "practice" ? Other than the smooth sailing it may bring. But what would be the net accomplishment of practicing good deeds if you have no understanding of the words, everlasting life?
I believe God is the Word, and the Word is God. And there's no knowing Him without it. Sure you can practice goodness and live a prosperous life. But you won't know what to do with it or why it's good for the universe.. The words in the bible have been laced to provide multiple meanings, therein lies the beauty and power to reach each individual. And gives the individual an open hyway for continual growth.
To surmise, the universe proves to us what we put out there comes back. I.e. Put out positive vibes, get back positive vibes. I don't believe this is what Jesus came here solely to teach. Why would He while hanging on the cross say, " oh Father why has thou forsaken me?"?
If Jesus could feel forsaken by God after a seemingly life filled with good deeds. How are we not to be expectant of feeling the same forsakenness once in awhile. Jesus gave us the example of crying out to the Father, and He was answered by being lifted from the grave and life restored. Jesus is our Brother who has gone before us in example and now stands as a shinning light for us to see our way to the Father.
Jesus begat Christianity by crying out to the Lord. This is the example we should follow.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I believe God is the Word, and the Word is God.
------
Sorry Blue, but no matter what you believe, the map is never the territory itself, or else the word "wind" would blow in your face, instead of being black marks on the page.
Take a way the word, and the wind still blows.
A practice of staying intimate with the wind itself, so to speak, with no doctrine between you, would result in what, do you imagine.
And I'm not saying that forays into holy texts are not fruitful. But when you close the Good Book, what might happen if you left it closed and just sat in the wind, not concerned with interpretations or being "right" about miracles?
JL
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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"Wednesday
My dearest.
The weather is quite delicious. Yesterday after writing to you I strolled a little beyond the glade for an hour & half & enjoyed myself—the fresh yet dark green of the grand Scotch Firs, the brown of the catkins of the old Birches with their white stems & a fringe of distant green from the larches, made an excessively pretty view.
At last I fell asleep on the grass and awoke with a chorus of birds singing around me, and squirrels running up the trees and some Woodpeckers laughing, and it was as pleasant a rural scene as ever I saw and did not care one penny how any of the beasts or birds had been formed."
-Chuck Darwin to his wife
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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What might happen if just for one day beliefs and doctrine were set aside and you just sat in the heart of it?
We'll never know. Most believers are too tied up with the big clubhouse and looking right.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I do it every day
no beliefs, no doctrine
it's quite freeing actually, you all should try it
even Largo
what possible doctrine are atheists bound to?
none
Faith in some religious belief?
nope
no one looking over my shoulder, no worries about death,
no possible chance of a "permanent record" listing good and bad
just let life happen and try and figure a way to make it work
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Take a way the word, and the wind still blows.
i think your describing experience? and i agree with what your say'in. Words belong on a sign, right?
Outside my window the wind is blowing 45mph right now!
Outside my window the is blowing 45mph right now!
Leaving out just one word could kill any chance i have in describing my experience to you. i guess we discovered words primarily for where two or more people congregate? The solitary person has no need for them? Words were brought out by experience for the sake of sharing experience, right?
The description you gave on climbing the Nose IAD, gave me hope that i might be able to do it too. But until i actually go up there and try, i really won't know what you meant by "Kingswing"
Unless we seek first the name of Jesus, we shall never experience the Holyspirit(atleast not in this lifetime).
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Unless we seek first the name of Jesus, we shall never experience the Holyspirit(atleast not in this lifetime).
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Blue, not sure I'm following you on this one, though I don't doubt it was true for you. Are you saying that the holy spirit is an experience that arises from the interface between consciousness and a word? Does Jesus have an exclusive on spiritual essence being bound in an object (the word)? Catholics say that the communal wafer (an object) IS the body of Christ. Does it not follow that without the object (word, wafer, totem, Crucifix, etc), the Holy Spirit is simply beyond human experience, making the object the key to the promise land?
And either way, how would a person know that?
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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One of the greatest teachers in my life has been my son, who is experiencing his teenage years. It has become very clear to me now that when I ignore him he gets pissed off, in my face and acts out. Essentially he says to me, "Do you see me?" He calms down when I reassure him I do see him.
When I remind him to see others he gets pissed off, acts out and gets in my face. I feel sad and show him. He calms down.
This morning he made me breakfast and I turned it down because I was in a rush to get to work. He stopped me and said, "Dad, are you sure you don't want an omelet and fruit salad?" I said yes I will have the breakfast you made...and we had a wonderful breakfast together. He gave and I excepted. I felt love all around me.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, Gary... just stopped by to see what all this was,
here...
as to this quote:
...when the pastor told me people like the Tassaday who'd never had any contact with the outside world were going to hell.
oh my, that's so sad that he'd say that,
these are things that humans do not know, of anyone... :(
:(
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WBraun
climber
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Just plain face it.
Americans are just plain stoopid.
Their god is money and technology.
Two stoopid things that don't do sh!t for you.
Americans think they are the body and money and technology put lipstick on the pig ......
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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neebee, that's just the luck of the draw, they say. God's going to send somebody to hell for eternity, because some missionaries never made it to the deep interior of Indonesia.
Seems fair.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Just look, the imaginary sky father mental projection.
Americans are so stoopid.
Some universe dad is controlling everything, stoopid Americans projections on the rest of humanity. You don't need Jesus to tell you that murder is wrong, but you need religious rules to tell you that killing is wrong and more guns are good. Stoopid Americans...
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Is werner back yet?
I may have forgot to take him off greasemonkey in anticipation of his return
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
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"Here's the very short version of a very long, multi-year story. I believe abiogenesis requires more faith than faith in God."
Hmmm. Life is here so I don't find abiogenesis terribly far-fetched even if we don't understand it. God vs. zeus vs. the tooth fairy vs. Santa Claus on the other hand I'm pretty clear on.
"Not to mention how many biochemical mechanisms are lacking from macroevolution theory."
Which would those be? Hey, we both have faith! After studying it, though, I must say I believe my faith is less far fetched.
I probably worded that second quote wrong. I don't have a list of those that are lacking, but rather haven't ever read of any that I think could explain abiogenesis and the leaps and bounds in complex life. I concede that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. This could go on forever so I'll just leave it at my original summary.
If you took the heart and soul of the Pauline letters, and used that as a guide, minus any explanation about what they "mean," and ignoring all "evidence," rather you simply tried to live it, what do suppose would happen.
Any time I see the focus on doctrine over existential truth, I wonder what the person is hoping to reap from their religion - a spiritual existence, or to be right about a bunch of equivocal history.
What might happen if just for one day beliefs and doctrine were set aside and you just sat in the heart of it?
A practice of staying intimate with the wind itself, so to speak, with no doctrine between you, would result in what, do you imagine.
And I'm not saying that forays into holy texts are not fruitful. But when you close the Good Book, what might happen if you left it closed and just sat in the wind, not concerned with interpretations or being "right" about miracles? I don't believe either of these questions were directed at me, but I'll share my opinion anyway :)
I think I understand what you're saying, and in principle I think you have a good point. Spending time practicing what our beliefs teach, rather than debating technicalities, if essential. However, I also believe that we must study and know our beliefs if we are to practice them (Proverbs 7:2-3). Also, I don't think simply doing good, for our short stay on earth, is what Jesus wanted nor what will help us spend eternity with him (Romans 10:9-11). I also believe that we could use God's help when trying to live like we should (Philippians 2:13). In the end, I think we should all spend time quietly with God, enjoying the wind, like Jesus did (Luke 5:16), but I personally enjoy learning about what I believe.
"Where it gets tricky is when people have never been specifically told about Jesus."
Well, why doesn't your god just tell them? Why does he feel the need to f*#k with people?
This is why I left the Methodists, when the pastor told me people like the Tassaday who'd never had any contact with the outside world were going to hell. Sorry, that breaks my heart. I'll find what I wrote earlier in response to a similar question:
Great, and tough, question. First, I believe that priests in the old testament would offer sacrifices for people who sinned in ignorance (numbers 15:22-29) and because Jesus was the final sacrifice for all sins (Hebrews 10:12) his blood covered those sins as well. We at least know that Jesus made a distinction between sins committed in ignorance and those that weren't (Luke 12:47-48).
But, the bible teaches that anyone who searches for God will find him (Deuteronomy 4:29) so I believe it is possible for anyone to know him. It also says that nobody has an excuse because knowledge of God is inherent, so everyone will at least consider the idea and decide whether or not to reject it (Romans 1:19-20).
Bottom line is that I believe that God has revealed himself to everyone so they can know his love and mercy. The problem is not that some people never hear about Christ, but that they reject what has been revealed to them. He wants everyone to know about him (2 Peter 3:9) and whatever we believe about this question he wants Christians to share his message (Matthew 28:19-20).
As a side note, I believe that everyone has sinned and does not deserve a reward (Romans 3:23) so even if only a few people accept the love of Jesus he is still merciful. It always comes back to the love of Jesus.
You don't need Jesus to tell you that murder is wrong Honest question, similar to what I asked earlier when some people thoughtfully responded. From a purely material view, what does make something wrong? I'm not looking for some correct answer, I just want to see what people think...
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WBraun
climber
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Americans have spoiled themselves with with their over emphasis of materialism.
They've raped the resources of the entire planet to support their so called high standard of living at the expense of the rest of the world.
Causing so much pain, suffering and endless wars.
Their god is more and more materialism and stoopid worthless junk in their stores that all ends up in the dumpster
after only a limited few years if even that long.
Their karma is to suffer becoming more and more stoooopid ......
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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making the object the key to the promise land?
Naw. Thought i been describing the opposite. Something like, the object as being the lock and Jesus being the key.. that's seems weak tho.
i should'a been more clear. i'm a fan of the triune system of "God". The Father-Son-HolyGhost that Jesus describes in the NT. Three seperate entities, with 3 separate jobs. One doesn't not pray to the HG over forgiveness for their sin. Forgiveness comes from our God the Father. The HolyGost is our "Helper". The Father sent He and His Angels here to earth to consul and inspire the souls of God's children through their prayer and praising. Our Father sent his Son, Jesus to share the experience of being a material mortal man susceptible to sin and death. When He was found guiltless by the judge, and yet put to death by the people. His mortal injustice became the sacrifice for our justified sins against God our Father. His was the ultimate sacrifice(that would be why i called Him the key). i believe His work has been done here on earth, and He's now sitting at the right hand of the Father. It' the HolySpirit doing work through God's love here on the planet today, i'm sure He has a stake in everyone's salvation. i've just only seen Him move when the name Jesus was invoked by a believer..
vvvyeah. Satan's got his angels to
vvvv
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Angels? Really?
Ah yes, the multiple-personality version that's eerily schizophrenic. Fascinating. Really.
"Put down the knife, Dad."
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