Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:50am PT
|
Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails. They deliberately generated a climate of fear to allow them two pre-emptive wars to follow through on long-simmering neocon plans of which this was clearly a part of. That climate of fear was pervasive and been reiterated ad nausea in every national election from 2001 on right through 2012 and in the run-up to 2014. Take this gem for example from April:
Congressman Tom Cotton took to the House floor “to express grave doubts about the Obama Administration’s counterterrorism policies and programs”:
“I rise today to express grave doubts about the Obama Administration’s counterterrorism policies and programs. Counterterrorism is often shrouded in secrecy, as it should be, so let us judge by the results. In barely four years in office, five jihadists have reached their targets in the United States under Barack Obama: the Boston Marathon bomber, the underwear bomber, the Times Square Bomber, the Fort Hood shooter, and in my own state—the Little Rock recruiting office shooter. In the over seven years after 9/11 under George W. Bush, how many terrorists reached their target in the United States? Zero! We need to ask, ‘Why is the Obama Administration failing in its mission to stop terrorism before it reaches its targets in the United States?’”
This sort of fear-mongering is the essence of what for forty years has passed for the heart and soul of republican campaigns. Be it blacks, gays, immigrants or now terrorists - fear was and is the main currency of republican campaigns. Don't like what's going on at the NSA? Yo conservatives, you voted for it lock, stock and barrel and have helped perpetuate the rhetoric of fear which made it as impossible for Obama to stop this program as it was for him to close Gitmo. So as far as I'm concerned, every conservative bitching about the NSA here or anywhere else can suck long and deep on it.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 07:38am PT
|
Am I the only one here who finds it ironic that the leaker seeks aid and asylum from countrys far more oppressive of their citzens freedom than the USA
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:21am PT
|
Good point HealyJe. We should also be "excruciatingly clear" that the President that followed Bushco has spent years expanding on many government programs which many US citizens think are breaking constitutional law. Killing unarmed Americans without due process being another one.
Hope and change my ass.
Response to Healyje who said:
"Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails. They deliberately generated a climate of fear to allow them two pre-emptive wars to follow through on long-simmering neocon plans of which this was clearly a part of. That climate of fear was pervasive and been reiterated ad nausea in every national election from 2001 on right through 2012 and in the run-up to 2014."
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
|
As a follow up and corollary to your Bushco point then, anyone who voted for Obama voted for extraordinary murder of US citizens? It's the voters fault? As the murder of citizens for thought crime was initiated and expanded by Obama, can't blame that on Bushco.
I don't recall Bush running on the "lets go insane and invade some middle eastern countries" platform and I don't recall Obama running under the "It's time to execute Americans for thought crime" banner either. But that's what you have. So should voters of those men be blamed or is it more likely that parts of the government are too big and out of control? That's what Snowdens point was.
|
|
TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
|
Someone's being blackmailed by the gov't, based on data mining, but without a whistleblower telling them it's happening, they wouldn't know it?
I'm sorry, but there's just no sense or logic in that assumption.
I mean, wouldn't I know I was being blackmailed, without Snowden telling me? Why do I need him to tell me that?
If a voyeur looking in your bedroom window was discreet enough that you don't see hims, have you been harmed? Better yet, he might scare away burglars, so in fact he's doing you a favor?
Personally, I don't have a big problem with billing records, I never felt they were private in the first place, and anyone who did was deluded, but where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, I don't want anyone looking or listening. If national security requires it, then let us know we're been listened to and let us decide.
I think this whole thing is a clever interim solution. Remember when Saddam Hussein realized it was far cheaper and easier to pretend he had WMD? Far cheaper to pretend the NSA has the ability to monitor and accurately catalog every phone call, email, google search and run facial recognition software on every CCTV and traffic camera in the nation. Eventually they will be able to, but in the meantime potential terrorists are afraid to even stand too near a phone or computer.
TE
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
|
There's a new cell phone game out - 'Where's Snowdon Now?'
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
|
Zero Dark Thirty
What pure bullsh!t movie.
Hedge you're a tin foil hatter ....
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
|
The pattern:
"In the immediate aftermath of the atomic bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated."
|
|
Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
|
Zero Dark Thirty
What pure bullsh!t movie.
Right. Like you were there. pffft.
Curt
|
|
ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
|
The pattern:
"In the immediate aftermath of the atomic bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated."
Great post!
It is sad how soon we as a society forget the past. There is little new under the sun, and the pattern repeats. It is transparent if you really look, but it is always easier to believe the lie and go along with the crowd... Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
|
Well there's Cotopaxi, Sangay, indigenous people living in the amazon and overall, a natural environment, but I think after about 6 months I'd want to go home. What's he going to do for a living, live off wikileaks donations?
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
|
'Am I the only one here who finds it ironic that the leaker seeks aid and asylum from countrys [sic] far more oppressive of their citzens [sic] freedom than the USA'
Nope.
Joe, it's nice being on the same side for once.
John
|
|
blowersattms
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
|
Ironic, just maybe, but hey, all it means is that he's gone to countries outside our reach. Crikey, wouldn't you? It's not like he supports their ideologies, jeez! Listen to his interview. Ends and means, what!
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
|
Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails.
its amazing that the libtards have thier head so far up obamas ass that they can't smell the sh#t. you guys really think his sh#t is better than W's?
if BO wanted to stop this he would have had Holder write a different opinion up.
no wonders this countrys so f*#ked up. you libtards on this site are as bad as teabaggers and just as brainless.
|
|
Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
|
if BO wanted to stop this he would have had Holder write a different opinion up.
So, you believe that after Congress authorized (and reauthorized) this surveillance and the Supreme Court upheld the legality of this surveillance, all that would be needed to stop it would be a simple opinion letter by the Attorney General? Please do explain exactly how that would work. Thanks.
Curt
|
|
abrams
Sport climber
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
|
The Russians and still mad about Obama's CIA spy caught with the wig there last month.
So Putin is twirling our limp piece of spagettii in the oval office for all he's worth and catching style points from around the world.
And contrary to libtard thinking it is not good when the whole world is smiling at our apparent weakness to get Snowden back.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
|
your the lawyer curt. tell us how it was the supreme court? my understanding was that it was FISA.
or are you saying that obama had no choice and lied during his initial campaign for POTUS, but thats OK with you since his sh#t dont stink?
|
|
Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
|
Curt's a lawyer? Uh oh...
At least he's consistently wrong.
Curt
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
|
"Glenn Greenwald has appeared on Jake Tapper's program on CNN. Tapper plays the exchange we linked to earlier this afternoon in which NBC's David Gregory suggested Greenwald may have "aid[ed] and abet[ted]" a crime.
......
Greenwald says the underlying premise of the question, that a journalist working with a source to tell a vital story based on sensitive information may be a criminal act, is pernicious to the work of truth-telling and chilling to investigative journalism as an enterprise."
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!