Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
|
Try clearing your cash and you will see what I mean.
I don't think he really wants to do that .....
But Cache, yes
|
|
donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
|
Dear Healyje
You wrote: "What would be the pont." in respose to a request to make your post clear.
From Don: I don't know yet, I am still trying to figure that out. That's why I asked you to clarify. Look, if you guys don't want to deal seriously with the topic that's fine. But I thought this was a serious subject. Did I make a mistake?
|
|
Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
|
i saw the video; never been out that way but what he is doing is silly as he is not cleaning loose dangerous crap, but enhancing.
In the Rockies, more importantly to this thread The Chossies, people remove loose debris and rock all the time creating routes, very common, or most sport routes here would be uber-suicidal. We clean pebbles out of cracks all the time, its not enhancing, it is making the route better and less dangerous.
However, mixed ice climbing is different and apparently enhancing, as opposed to simple cleaning, has become a also a common practice here with drilled holes.
There is a big difference, but this guy is obviously enhancing as he beat on that same spot forever and it was not loose....
Or he is a chicken poop head.
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
|
donald
I bet you have some stories to tell. Did the readership at gunks.com finally bore you to tears? That site sucks. Always has always will. So welcome to the fold.
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
|
mixed ice climbing is different and apparently enhancing, as opposed to simple cleaning, has become a also a common practice here with drilled holes.
Weird. You mean they drill holes in rock so that their ice tool placements are more secure? Sounds like enhancing hook moves on aid, and ^^^ not valid.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
|
Thank god the Nose has already been chipped for Donini and Lowe.
|
|
Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
|
First off I don't ever mix-ice climb but yes apparently they chip/drill rock to have the pick sit better than not at all.
Second, many sport climbs in the Rockies of Canada are cleaned as this is crap limestone and some even use crowbars to pry off loose blocks, and this is not enhancing a hold this is ridding the cliff of many death blocks. Sorry it ain't granite.
|
|
nature
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
|
getting old, brittle and weak is a rational for beating a piece of rock into submission with hammer and chisel. Good. Stuff. That.
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
|
Lovegas,
Although you certainly can write, I think you are missing Donald's point.
It isn't about black and white, this or that. Ivan did a thing, and there may some motivations behind it that are not understood. Until there is more evidence, blanket assumptions and accusations may be premature.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:12am PT
|
Ivan did a thing, and there may some motivations behind it that are not understood. Until there is more evidence, blanket assumptions and accusations may be premature.
That's a good one! I especially like the "until there is more evidence" bit.
|
|
Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 01:21am PT
|
If chipping is condoned, then what's to stop people from going out to chip
someones v hard climb down to a V easy so they can climb it?
And all other arguments aside, that's what it really comes down to. If it's OK for Ivan to chip a project so that he can send it, why is it then wrong for any climber to alter any climb so that he can do it?
Curt
|
|
donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 01:22am PT
|
Dear Lovegasoline,
In response to my letter you wrote: “Perhaps the aging career climbers … should be … allowed to chip the new climbing projects that they undertake …”
First, I am sorry you did not read my letter very carefully before you attempted to respond to it. You have yet to address its argument.
The "ethic" in view first of all is in the fact that as the high baller gets older he is starting from the top rather than the bottom. Not that he is starting out chipping holds into the rock so he makes it up every climb now without falling. You are reading my letter ass-backwards. As life goes on, he naturally gravitates to make the most of pre-cleaning his climbs, and breaks off the stuff that was going to pop of anyway, and in a better way and place had it broken off naturally by someone climbing on it. He thinks about the rock first, rather than his style. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that at this point. It's not cool to drop sh#t on your spotters or your belayers and destroy an otherwise, what could be a perfect climb. Another thing that pushes him in this direction is that he starts to think about the value of sacrificing ethics for safety. Now I am talking about the ethic of pre-viewing climbs rather then onsighting. And at this point and it this case that it does not hurt the rock either.
Secondly, I am talking about the history of how we got here or how he may have got there. Notice I mention my own feelings and the environment we find ourselves in today. The point of the letter was not to justify chipping, but to try and understand what’s going on here in the Gunks. I think it is actually more complex that it may first appear on the surface. For example, I don’t think these people have set out to destroy the rock, not at all, I trust that they are actually intending to put in some good lines. But the pressure is on to scoop up the last big problems, and the rock doesn’t change. Things just may have gotten out of hand at some point, where what was very exceptional started to become too normal, and gravitated to something no one originally intended. And if this is the case, and I think it is, then this thinking needs to be reversed to something clear.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 01:23am PT
|
His motivation is irrelevant.
And yeah, we need more evidence. I want a DNA test. I want witness testimony. But most of all, I want to see if those awesome camouflage glove actually fit on his pudgy little hands. That's really the only way we can be sure he did what we all THINK he MIGHT have POSSIBLY done... or not done... or something.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 02:21am PT
|
...I trust that they are actually intending to put in some good lines. But the pressure is on to scoop up the last big problems, and the rock doesn’t change.
Do you actual read any of this while you're writing it? Here, let me fix that for you:
...I trust that they are actually intending to chisel some good lines. But the pressure is on to manufacture big problems given the rock doesn’t change on its own.
|
|
RyanD
climber
Squamish
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 03:14am PT
|
Every post on this page is great.
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 07:51am PT
|
If it's OK for Ivan to chip a project so that he can send it, why is it then wrong for any climber to alter any climb so that he can do it?
Definitely, a worst case scenario would be if people started doing this on sacred ground like el Cap. Still, if this happened in the gunks that's well known for both trad ethics and access issues. Some observations about the case:
 Greene wrote a guidebook to the Gunks and people may see him as some kind of community leader.
anyone who's been to the Gunks knows there are issues with access to the area, and that it's on land that's in the backyard of a hotel for millionaires.
(apparently) many other climbs have asked him to stop chipping holds, and made this video because he wouldn't stop.
Greene appears to have bought professional tools for this purpose and keeps them at his project sites
if you look at the expressions on his face and body language in the video, he looks guilty as sh#t, as if he's worried someone is going to catch him.
he has apparently not responded to the video and took down his facebook page. My guess: either the Preserve or the police did something or threatened to.
To me the situation seems almost a little on the pathetic side, that these boulder problems were so important to him. If his goal was to be respected in the climbing community, he's blown it big time.
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 08:25am PT
|
Ok internet guys, you win on all accounts without question or gray area. Climbing area development is, and shall always be, black and white. Burn the heretic. Hillary 2016.
|
|
Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 09:27am PT
|
It's not just internet guys. It's real people in real life at the cliff, at the gunks, who want Ivan to stop chiseling or STFH.
|
|
donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 09:49am PT
|
From Cosmo: "As life goes on, he naturally gravitates to make the most of pre-cleaning his climbs, and breaks off the stuff that was going to pop of anyway, and in a better way and place had it broken off naturally by someone climbing on it. He thinks about the rock first, rather than his style. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that at this point."
I have a problem with the above statement. In more ways than one.
Does anyone else see the problem?
From Don: We are talking about special instances someone will run into if they climb full time. If you have so many problems, could you name just one? The stuff is going to break off anyway, where and when it breaks off should be more important than having it break off while your trying to do a first accent in good style. And a wrong move by someone who does not know what they are doing on fragile rock can just make the rock worse.
Another option is to come up with a rule that loose and cavitated rock should be forever off limits to climbing because climbing may make future climbing impossible on some climbs because there is no logical solution yet. This sounds like something some bureaucracy at a park could suggest. Is this what you are suggesting?
|
|
donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:19am PT
|
From Healyje
“Do you actual read any of this while you're writing it? Here, let me fix that for you: ...I trust that they are actually intending to chisel some good lines. But the pressure is on to manufacture big problems given the rock doesn’t change on its own.” "
You are talking about the video with the guy chipping. I am talking about what their intentions where, are, or should be, and how they may have come to this point. You are talking about chipping to climb. I am talking about climbing, and how it can progress to chipping. Your reading my intended meanings in my letter backwards.
I will give an example. Why is there fluoride in your drinking water, it is in so many towns and cities, and why is it mandated by government. It is a poison and you probably brush your teeth with it. A lot of it ends up in your brain. You probably think it’s good for you. See the doctors on youtube. Or, why are hospitals and doctors by in large more concerned with medication and pharmaceutical sales than what’s wrong with the American diet or heavy metals in your teeth for example? Why be more concerned with the symptoms rather than the initial cause? Things did not just start out with, "lets drink poison". They gravitated this way because the system is based formost on money rather then health.
So lets try my sentence here:
...I trust that they are actually intending to put in some good intentions with the patents. But the pressure is on to pay off the college loans, as the economy just gets worse. As a result, eventually there was naturally a gravitation toward money and sales rather than health. But it did not start out this way.
Your reading things out of my letters I never wrote.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!