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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 27, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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"So let's just exploit this tradgedy. Let's pass wide sweeping laws that just divide this deeply fractured society even farther."
Except that, of course, the wide sweeping laws are passed by wide sweeping democratic majority rule. If you believe this "fractures" our society, you need to go where gov't operates in the way you prefer.
Yes Hedge, you think the current federal government is here to help us and operates in the best interests of their citizens.
You follow in the hoof-prints of billions before us.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 27, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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Works about as well as any other form of mob rule.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 27, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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UK = 62 million
Annual gun deaths = 62
Rate = 1 gun death per 1,000,000 people per annum
USA = 310 million
Annual gun deaths = 11,100
Rate = 1 gun death per 30,000 people per annum
Yup, all those guns makes the USA a lot safer than the UK, where guns are outlawed.
Thanks to gun nuts, I have a 30-times greater chance of getting murdered by a gun than someone who lives in the UK.
Oh, you wanna look at murder by all methods? The murder rate in the UK (1.2) is one-fourth of the murder rate in the USA (4.2) on a per-capita basis.
Yup, Guns make America safer!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 27, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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You're right, Hedge, it's merely gun crime that increased. Trying to get data on gun murder rates in the United Kingdom isn't easy. The Home Office statistical report offers some help, but not enough to determine trends. If I were to indulge in some post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, though, I would point out that murder rates rose after the passage of the 1997 Firearms Act, but hey, what's data anyway?
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/hosb0212?view=Binary
Trying to correlate gun ownership and gun homicide rates by geographic area, without accounting for changes in the laws, is rather meaningless. The United States, ranking far and away the highest in per capita gun ownership, is 28th in gun homicide rate. Switzerland, for example, has about 4.5 times more guns per capita than does Argentina, but Switzerland's gun homicide rate is about 1/3 that of Argentina's.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list
That's why trends matter, so I can't really blame Norton or Hedge for trying to distract from the data showing that changes in gun laws haven't delivered the results they advertised.
John
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 27, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
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Go back about a hundred years, S.L.R., to the time when the gun laws in the U.S. and the U.K. were the same - as in there were no gun laws. Gun ownership rates were sililar then, too.
What wasn't similar, however, were the rates of gun here and there.
America had a much higher rate of gun violence than the U.K. back when we shared the exact same gun laws - and still does today - because we're a more violent society. And we always have been.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 27, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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...because we're a more violent society...
Thanks to guns!
And the solution is... more guns???????
YGBSM
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 27, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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Will post more later. Computer got hacked so my ability to work and communicate is seriously curtailed. Boo.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 27, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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Thanks, Crimpie.
John
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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This thread was supposed to be about pill problems, not guns. WTF?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Dec 27, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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"Could it be that you don't know what "civil" means?"
Yes that's how we rebuild society, by quibbling over definitions of words, hahahaha
**
Here's the best way to start rebuilding society: Get rid of the party that is doing everything they can to prevent it.
Fortunately, by 2020 they'll be just as irrelevant nationally as they currently are in CA, and we can get started**
Yes, as soon as we can get the federal government up to snuff like California's, happy days will be here again. Can't wait.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 27, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
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And you know this because of your close personal relationship with Diane?
Or is it because your friends are making stuff up, so you have something to be outraged about?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 27, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
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Colorado, Florida and Nevada are now Blue States.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 27, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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I thought that Colorado was now a green state,..
Feinstein for salesman of the year!
The fukking shelves are bare!
There isn't even any .22 ammo for sale.
Dick told me that yesterday a guy came in and paid retail for every hi-cap magazine magazine in the store to any gun.
I even contemplated picking up some new hi-caps to guns I didn't own for trade value.
If Ron is right and this goes through I'm gonna be a GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT grandfather.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 27, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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JE - without spending a lot of time digging about Britain and gun violence...and not being in my office where my books are...I offer this:
People posting about large increases in gun violence are generally posting about the NUMBER of crimes, not the rate. These numbers do not take into account growth in the population. When posting about rates, it appears that it's gone down some after an initial lag following the most recent firearm legislation.
Something to keep in mind about GB is that they've always had relatively low rates, so there isn't much lower it can go. Always more room to go up then.
Too short an answer I know, but with my machine being pesty today, I'm behind on some work so I've not given this the attention it deserves right now.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 27, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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Thanks, Crimpie. That was my suspicion, because I have to believe that there isn't a whole lot of data on which to make reliable statistical analyses.
Incidentally, the study that Hedge cites as showing a drop in gun violence after the enactment of the federal assault weapons ban has this to say about cause and effect:
It is Premature to Make Definitive Assessments of the Ban’s Impact on Gun Crime
• Because the ban has not yet reduced the use of LCMs [large capacity magazines] in crime, we cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence. However, the ban’s exemption of millions of pre-ban AWs and LCMs ensured that the effects of the law would occur only gradually. Those effects are still unfolding and may not be fully felt for several years into the future, particularly if foreign, pre-ban LCMs continue to be imported into the U.S. in large numbers.
The Ban’s Reauthorization or Expiration Could Affect Gunshot Victimizations, But Predictions are Tenuous
• Should it be renewed, the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement. AWs were rarely used in gun crimes even before the ban. LCMs are involved in a more substantial share of gun crimes, but it is not clear how often the outcomes of gun attacks depend on the ability of offenders to fire more than ten shots (the current magazine capacity limit) without reloading.
. . .
Crimpie actually has some peer-reviewed papers published on this area, if I remember rightly. That, along with her eminent level of expertise in criminology, makes her views rather more persuasive on these issues than those of anyone else (including me).
John
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 27, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
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Gee,
I guess I think that we should do........nothing at all!
Let's just continue to let anybody buy any kind of high capacity assault weapon, and why not continue to allow convicted felons and mentally deranged people buy those weapons at gun shows and from private parties without any background checks!
Let's mock and ridicule any legislator who considers any kind of bill that corrects some of that "looseness" in our gun buying culture!
hint: absolutely no one is talking about taking anyone's guns away, what a relief
And most of all, just one week after 20 third graders were slaughtered,......
wait for it......
let's do nothing!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 27, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
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It is Premature to Make Definitive Assessments of the Ban’s Impact on Gun Crime
It seems really difficult to find a relationship like this. Mostly because of all violence, gun violence is a very small percentage. Numerically then it won't drive overall violence rates much at all. Murder is a different story, but again linking any gun ban on murder going up or down is the very hard part.
Edit: Doing nothing at all seems problematic to me. This is of course an area of disagreement and some thing change is needed and others do not. To me, it seems we need to try to do better at reducing murder even more than it's declined. The question is what drives making things better. What form will it take? Are we are willing put spend money and other resources getting there?
And I am a little baffled as to the joy some express about all the guns being bought up like crazy. Seems they would be more expensive for Joe Schmos to buy right now given the demand. Generally paying more upsets people, but here some seem thrilled. Some people puzzle me.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 27, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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Norton writes:
"...and why not continue to allow convicted felons and mentally deranged people buy those weapons at gun shows and from private parties without any background checks!"
It's already illegal for felons and mentally deranged people to buy guns at gun shows, just like it's already illegal for those people to buy guns everywhere else.
Perhaps the current law needs to be enfoeced.
If a current law isn't enforced, what makes you think a new law will be enforced?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 27, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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If anyone doesn't think there is a relationship between the number of guns in a society and the percentage of murders caused by guns....they have shite for brains. Some studies could not find a depreciable decrease in gun related homicides during the ten year assault weapons ban. Duh!!!!...think maybe the cat wasn't already out of the bag with nearly 300 million weapons already in people's possession.
With such a gun crazed society, any gun control legislation will take years to show appreciable results. That is NOT an excuse to not enact sensible legislation, but it IS a reason to get the ball rolling asap.
One thing for sure.....there wouldn't be twenty mourning parents in Newton if Lanza did not have an assault rifle and large capacity magazines in his possession.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 27, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
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If I have enthusiasm for the current spree of buying it is only because I understand investments.
Soon I might be able to sell a quarter of my ordnance to pay for all of it.
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