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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:52am PT
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As I've read through the entire thread a few days ago, I observed what I believe is a pretty strong correlation.
It seems that atheist sentiments are highly associated with respect and belief in science as some sort of final arbiter. So, I would suggest that the title of the thread may be restated or misleading. I think it might be: "I like the science life," which provides a different set of values and beliefs than a non-atheist life.
In the end, it seems to me that people are really arguing (or their assumptions) about the basis of reality. That topic was probed considerably on Largo's thread, "What is Mind," and on Dr. F.'s thread, "Science, Religion, and Politics."
It's been said here just recently that science trumps religion or God. What a funny idea that is to me. There are so many places and situations where science has almost nothing to say--like about The Beautiful or The Good. Science is a really good tool, but I doubt it is a universal tool.
Tonight I finished watching Keanu Reeves' documentary entitled, "Side by Side." It's a film about the impact in the entertainment industry of switching from film to digital technologies. The movie presents interviews of cinematographers and directors across the globe about the subject, and through those, we get a great deal of discussion about the difference between the technologies (film versus digital). Invariably, however, the technologies take second fiddle to overriding concerns about imagination, the beauty of images, and the importance of compelling stories. That's when I thought about this thread.
Science presents a set of stories to us, and people here want to argue which stories are True. In that there appears to be no absolutes, the whole idea about the truth of one particular story over another is interesting . . . at least curious.
The things people argue about here--as if they really mattered in our lived lives. (Angels on the head of a pin.) Sheepishly, and with some humility, I argue that the things that really matter are neither about science nor organized religion.
(Lovesgasoline could probably spin a skein of gold from the detritus I've written above.)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:06am PT
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really Werner, do you care "why your car died?"
not how it died, why, on that particular day did that particular part decide to fail?
do you care, really?
no, you'd just let it sit there, do another couple of laps on Astroman, and deal with it later...
you don't care why... you'd just go and fix it...
the universe, as a whole, seems rather hostile to humans... there aren't many places we could survive, just here, perhaps there are many places, but the vastness of the universe would exclude us... in fact, we're not even made out of the stuff most common in the universe, our universe is an impurity in the actual universe...
...yes we have consciousness, yes we give purpose to what we do, yes we care... but the universe gets along quite well without us... as far as we know, our particular impurity left over from the big bang isn't really an essential feature of the universe, it would probably do quite well without it... who knows? we will probably in a few decades...
but by and large, the universe isn't here for us
we happen to occupy a particularly hospitable place in it
we should enjoy our short time living in that place
in the competition of ideas, it would seem that science provides something that religion and philosophy do not, which is expanding knowledge.
what is new in religion?
what is new in philosophy?
how are those areas progressing?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:11am PT
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MikeL
Look into the mirror
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:53am PT
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i think mike L's observation pertains. this thread seems to have attracted a lot of people who equate science and atheism. out in the real world, you'll find plenty of scientists who harbor various religious beliefs. likewise, in any given atheist society--not the skeptic society, mind you--you'll find people without a great deal of scientific literacy who are just fed up with religion and looking--as every churchgoer does--for people with similar beliefs, for the comfort to be derived.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 12, 2012 - 11:14am PT
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this thread seems to have attracted a lot of people who equate science and atheism Well, this appearance is wrong. At least much of the time. For many. As many of us use the term atheist or atheism... by default... only because we "believers" don't have any better term presently.
But make no mistake. Science is one thing. Atheism (not to mention its antipode: theism) is another thing. And any new disciplines to come with more evolution - either relating to beliefs or to the "practice of living" - will be yet another thing.
.....
P.S. That you and MikeL would agree on many things - why does't that surprise me, lol!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 12, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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Taking a page from the Abrahamic religions?
http://dailycurrant.com/about/
Q. Are your newstories real?
A. No. Our stories are purely fictional. However they are meant to address real-world issues through satire and often refer and link to real events happening in the world.
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
On the one hand, the more things change the more they stay the same. On the other hand, this is the new reality in the internet age.
Given the world we live in, is there a place for these "satiricals"? Seems there is. As evolution won't be selecting against them.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 12, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
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So, I would suggest that the title of the thread may be restated or misleading. I think it might be: "I like the science life," which provides a different set of values and beliefs than a non-atheist life.
When discussing these topics I think we need assiduously to resist using the word "belief" except when we mean
an opinion that requires no supporting data and is also not subject to criticism or modification
Belief used also to mean any opinion.
That meaning needs to be deleted from the dictionary.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 12, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
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I think we need assiduously to resist using the word "belief"
You've said this many times, now. I can't think of anything more self-defeating. And thus ridiculous.
Beta: Take a couple linguistic courses. Hopefully they should inform you that you'd have better luck sailing a dandelion to the moon.
belief: any mental holding whatsoever (for better or worse, opinion or not, right or wrong, true or false, hurtful or helpful, etc.)
I hear Alex Honnold is an atheist. I hear Lady Gaga and Adele are inclined toward both science and atheism. Suggest to them they remove "belief" (not to mention "spirit" and "faith") from their lyrics - see how far that gets you - see how much that makes you look like a loon.
Gotta "wise up" man in both linguistics and general human nature. And stop gumming up the movement with overly anal retentiveness (yes characteristic of some overly engineered types).
I've got "beliefs" in science. I've got "beliefs" in rock climbing and in other sports. I've got "beliefs" that concern human nature and human history. I've got "beliefs" concerning traditional fundamentalist Muslims and Christians. They are evidence-based. Rock solid. So there. ;)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
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re:
"an opinion that requires no supporting data"
I know... "An opinion that requires no supporting data" might be called... an opinon that is baseless... or an opinion that is unsupportable. Or even bs if you don't agree with it.
Belief used also to mean any opinion.... That meaning needs to be deleted from the dictionary.
Yeah, good luck with that. :(
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jstan
climber
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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Beta: Take a couple linguistic courses. Hopefully they should inform you that you'd have better luck sailing a dandelion to the moon.
HFCS:
I get the impression your first priority is not one of communicating effectively.
You will of course continue to say what you believe. I will continue to say what I think needs to be said.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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I get the impression your first priority is not one of communicating effectively.
Your impression couldn't be more incorrect.
Dude, I don't know, my role models with respect to communicating are the likes of Carl Sagan, Sam Harris, Thomas Friedman, Richard Heinberg, Steven Pinker - to name a few.
They use these terms. Even in a technical setting. Do you really think as word-symbols they don't communicate effectively.
Btw, I did get A's in all my hs and college english classes, you? And right now, ironically, I am working in applied linguistics, lol, you?
-Which is why I take your post (along with your others along the same lines) so personally. Heck, you might even say it's professionally offensive. :)
P.S.
And as an engineering undergrad and pro engineer I did have the oppo to meet many an engineering type with their head so far up their ass they couldn't see daylight. Regarding social skills, communicating and such.
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Here, this by Sam Harris:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/a-plea-for-spirituality
In similar fashion, would you be one of those to encourage Sam Harris to dump the word "spirit" or "spirituality" because religions have made a mess of them? This, too, would be self-defeating.
And don't get me started regarding "truth." What's wrong with some of yous - no wonder religions and their nonsense get so much traction still.
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I will continue to say what I think needs to be said.
Well, since this topic is my current purview, I'll be sure to try to follow you in order to see what kind of traction you get on your quest. Let me know if you tweet. :)
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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Belief = story = theory = idea = concept = abstraction = thought = thinking.
Go beyond or get before.
Ideas may have had a great deal to do with man's evolution and change, but they are just ideas. They are all made up. Even facts are ideas.
EDIT: Marlow, when I look in the mirror closely, all I see is light / pixels.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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MikeL
So many words.
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TomT
Trad climber
Aptos.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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It seems that the term atheism is framed as a counter response to belief in God. And many Christians I have known have that opinion about scientists, as if science was atheism. I think I am a non-theist, and do like the science life.
I have come to see that I am not just an agnostic, that I really don't believe in some sort of supreme being or spirit that creates or manages this world, but I don't define myself in opposition to such beliefs, although I do find that when I say that I don't believe in God it seems to make a ruckus with family and friends, so I don't say much. It would be great if believers wouldn't get so agitated - I think many struggle with doubt and fears about hell and such. I've pretty much accepted that there is no afterlife (actually never think about it) , its upsetting when family and friends die, but lots of stuff in life is upsetting...and as Woody Allen says, forever is a long time, especially the last part.
And I do think about beauty and other stuff, and drive my artistic wife nuts because I do think about beauty from science perspective (I'm an anthropologist) so I don't spend much time thinking about whether there is a God, or why there is a universe, mostly think about why one person or group thinks differently than others.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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agnostics lack faith in their convictions
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
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Hey, just in case it wasn't perfectly clear already let me say I appreciate the robust debate (or exchange) I just had with jstan.
Indeed. So thank you jstan.
Sure beats the hell out of debating Abrahamic nonsense, a subject that should've been finished in the 19th century.
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In the future, maybe we'll have a... I Like the Science Life thread, too. There's probably room for both. :)
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Another fine post by TomT.
Framing matters.
.....
Some atheists relish their counterpoint to theists. Even as reflected in their identity's etymology. Their pastime if not passion it seems is battling the theists ad nauseum. You seriously wonder if deep inside they would want theism to come to an end in human thought, culture and belief - what would they do with their lives? it would mean the end of their "atheist" identity...
But for others, a-theism is just something of (a) a clearing agent (b) a holding ground - till a better description (or "practice of living") comes along. And, in the end (if further progress prevails), "atheism" won't make any more sense than anastrology (an-astrology).
.....
J._Christopher_Stevens (1960 - 2012)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Christopher_Stevens
One more casualty of Abrahamic nonsense, Islamic version.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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Some say: take God out of the equation
Some say: God never was in the equation.
I say: God is the equation .........
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Sep 12, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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HFCS: I get the impression your first priority is not one of communicating effectively
lol!
Okay, perhaps my "first impression" of you, HFCS, as having strong "impudent" characteristics (or whatever i said) was a bit harsh and I humbly apologize for that. I was a little taken back, at the time, at your labeling me/my question as being juvenile. I believe "teenager" was the specific word used. That's all water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned (i say dumb ass sh#t all the time and get called out for it by best friends and family) C'est la Vie!
But, dood (HFCS) is respect part of your mentality or vocabulary?
I do respect the both of you, although I may not see eye to eye on various subjects. Mr. Stannard, (jstan) is a man well traveled and has accomplished very much both academically, socially, etc., and has certainly made his mark in climbing history. Perhaps all that is beside the point to you HFCS and as a matter of fact, it is besides the point. Cuz, from a humanistic position/point of view, shouldn't we treat each other with a bit of respect no matter where we have been or come from. Isn't that what "communicating" is all about, what it all boils down to.
You tend to throw out a lot of insults. It's rather representative of a person who needs to elevate themselves above everyone else, imo! And that can be/become, sooner or later, very problematic in life! Just sayin!!
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Sep 12, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
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TT - Your a fluke of the universe.
I'm a fluke of the universe? Thank you for that revelation. It answers a lot of my questions, it levels all my hopes & inspirations and leaves me with little doubt...I am a F'n Dirtbag fer Life! I am know truly free! Amen!!!
;)
edit: i do not necessarily identify with the d00ds in the vid though. for instance, i was against the Iraq war from the very beginning and was very vocal about it...just for starters! Just sayin!!
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