Lance Armstrong accepts lifetime ban, loss of Tour de France

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Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
yes The Chief who valiantly defended americas freedoms doesnt want to give Lance his own right to due process. "lets hang the mofo!"
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 27, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
USADA is again delaying providing any justification to the UCI, and now says that they will provide it by October 15.

In other news today, Lance Armstrong is going on with his life and doing fine. Some organizations are de-certifying rather than banning him.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443916104578020514003260282.html

Triathlons Part Waters for Armstrong
Despite a Doping Ban, His Presence Sends Enrollments Soaring

Lance Armstrong is banned from competitions sanctioned by Olympic governing bodies—part of his punishment for deciding last month not to fight charges that he engaged in doping as a professional cyclist. But Armstrong remains more than America's most famous endurance athlete. He is its only famous endurance athlete.

So when he seeks to compete in a triathlon—a sport whose popularity ranks far below that of, say, bass fishing—his magnetism makes an unthinkable question suddenly thinkable: Does the number of extra enrollments he brings to an event outweigh the loss of certification by USA Triathlon?

Faced with that very question this month was the Half Full Triathlon in Maryland. For two years running, it had boasted USAT certification, a distinction that lowers insurance rates while offering professionals a chance to boost their international rankings.

But when presented with a recent race request from Armstrong, Half Full for this year decided to sacrifice its USAT certification. And it paid off. After announcing last Thursday that Armstrong would participate in the Oct. 7 race, enrollment jumped 20%, said race executive Brian Satola.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 27, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
yes The Chief who valiantly defended americas freedoms doesnt want to give Lance his own right to due process. "lets hang the mofo!"

The Chief was never "a Chief. He gets his title from being a career Chief Petty Officer in the Navy. He should use "Petty Chief."

Look up "petty" in the dictionary. It fits.

pet·ty (pt)
adj. pet·ti·er, pet·ti·est
1. Of small importance; trivial: a petty grievance.
2. Marked by narrowness of mind, ideas, or views.
3. Marked by meanness or lack of generosity, especially in trifling matters.
4. Secondary in importance or rank; subordinate. See Synonyms at trivial.
5. Law Variant of petit.
[Middle English peti, from Old French, variant of petit; see petit.]
petti·ly adv.
petti·ness n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

I don't know whether Armstrong is guilty or not, but it's obvious to me that the USADA is a large unaccountable organization with a vendetta and is trying to steamroller him.

They're being asked to explain their decision, and they're not able to do so. I don't think they have any practice in that--because they normally don't have to.

"The UCI had no reason to assume that a full case file did not exist but USADA's continued failure to produce the decision is now a cause for concern," Pat McQuaid, the president of cycling's governing body, said in a statement on Thursday.

"It is over a month since USADA sanctioned Lance Armstrong. We thought that USADA were better prepared before initiating these proceedings," he added.

McQuaid had previously said he had no intention of contesting USADA's decision, unless the UCI was given serious reasons to do so.

The UCI noted in its statement that reports were suggesting USADA was still gathering evidence and has yet to complete its case file.

It seems that under the WADA rules, the USADA is responsbible for sending its "reasoned decision" to the UCI. The USADA is not been able to do that.

Since they announced their decision over a month ago, it is strange that they don't have a decision to forward and are now saying they won't until up to October 15.


UCI:

It is at very least unusual that USADA would still be gathering evidence against a person after it has found that person guilty. The UCI assumes that the reasons for any difficulty in putting the evidence together will be explained in USADA’s decision.”


Predictably the USADA responded quickly with accusations and name-calling directed at the UCI.

My advice to them would be to just shut up and deliver their decision. I hope it's made public so everyone can read it.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Sep 27, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
1) Passing 500 tests when the tests are not good enough and/or are not even looking for the right drugs/evidence does not mean a person was not doping. Just a couple of examples- Marion Jones tested clean 200 times while doping. Bernhard Kohl(3rd place 2008 TDF)-"I was tested 200 times during my career, and 100 times I had drugs in my body. I was caught but 99 times I wasn't. Riders think they can get away with doping because most of the time they do"

2)Lance tested positive for cortisone in '99 and in a later investigation his blood samples from that year tested positive EPO. In 2001, tested positive for EPO at the Tour of Switzerland. Tygart will present these as part of his evidence.

3)USADA has said more evidence is pouring in and that is the reason for the delay. Nothing wrong with that.

Again, the UCI was a sham of an organization and allowed lots of shady things to go on. They are sh*ting bricks right now. It will not look good.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 28, 2012 - 12:21am PT
Why aren't there five-hundred-post threads on the other dopers?

Keith Richards has taken more dope than anybody and had more transfusions.

I'm gonna strip him and make him an Ex Rolling Stone. Thankfully Brian Jones just died and spared everyone all this bullsheeit.
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2012 - 12:28am PT
Burchey -- "LA has ZERO affect on my life."

Oh bulls!t.

It's so easy to run your mouth into your foot.

If it has zero effect then you would never have said one word about it .....
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2012 - 12:44am PT
It's not about lance or any of that.

Again .....

If it has zero effect then you would never have said one word about it.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 28, 2012 - 01:36am PT
Go ahead and take away Lances 7 TDF titles USADA , UCi , and The Chief...I doubt you will find any freak on this planet that could have beat Lance drugged or not drugged....Get on your bikes and take EPO and go out and beat Lance...Put your mouth where the foot meets the pedal...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 28, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
LA is going down.... hard.

When his boss Johan has his day in front of USADA, the testimonies will become public and LA's true behavior and persona will come out.

Game over.



Just like the rest of them roiders, juicers, cheaters in the modern world of sports.

And because its NOT pubic, how do you know what Lance Armstrong's "tue behavior and persona" is? I don't and I don't think you do either.

On the other hand, I think I have a pretty good grasp of your "behavior and persona" on this board, Chief Petty. Petty all the way through.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 28, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
The Curious Use of Language in the Lance Armstrong Decision

Dr. Keith Devlin

Did Lance Armstrong dope or use blood transfusions during his professional cycling career? I have no idea. Nor, it appears, does anyone else except for Lance and perhaps a few members of his team. But as a mathematician with expertise in the use of language in reasoning, I find the much-touted central pillar of the United States Anti-Doping Agency's case against him does not stand up to even a cursory examination.

Apart from hearsay evidence from two disgraced former cycling teammates of Armstrong, the USADA bases its case (at least according to what they have said) on the blood and urine samples taken from the cyclist in 2009 and 2010, when he made a brief comeback to the sport after four years in retirement. In a June letter to Armstrong, subsequently made public, the USADA said those samples were "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."

Though a recreational cyclist, my interest in this case is fairly minimal. It is that term "fully consistent with" that piqued my mathematician's interest. It is a very odd phrase to use in a situation like this, not least because it has absolutely no evidentiary force. It says nothing of any significance.

[Certainly, after two years deliberation, including testimony from former team-mates obtained under oath through a grand jury, the U.S. federal criminal investigation of the allegations made against him finally dropped the case early this year, saying there was no real evidence against him.]

Though the layperson typically thinks of mathematicians as being focused on numbers, that is actually not the case. That false view is a consequence of the mathematics taught in high school. Only at university are you likely to encounter the mathematics done by the professionals. High among our real areas of expertise are logical reasoning, rigorous proof, and the precise use of language.

Incidentally, I am not referring here to using language and reasoning precisely in esoteric discussions of arcane mathematical topics. Yes, we do that too. But we also apply our expertise in everyday, practical domains. (Homeland Security, to name one domain I myself have worked on.)

There are a number of terms we use to describe evidence. The strongest is "proof" (or "conclusive proof", but any mathematician will tell you the adjective is superfluous.) We might say that, "Evidence X proves that Y happened."

An alternative that might seem weaker, but in actuality is not, is that "Evidence X implies that Y happened."

Definitely weaker, is "Evidence X suggests (or indicates) that Y happened."

All of these have evidentiary power of differing degrees. And there are others.

At the other end of the spectrum, we can say, "Evidence X contradicts Y having happened." X proves Y did not occur.

Evidence collected to uncover wrong-doing, such as doping controls in sport, by virtue of their design, rarely (if at all) provide proof of innocence. At best, when a doping test does not come up positive, the most you can say is it did not yield proof. It does not rule out (i.e., does not contradict) doping, just as a negative result from a cancer screening does not mean you are cancer free, merely that the test did not detect any cancer.

So what does that USADA term "fully consistent with" mean? Well, first of all, let's drop the "fully"; it's superfluous. Consistency is a definitive term. Something is either consistent or not; no half measures. It's also a term mathematicians like myself are very familiar with -- again for real world uses as much if not more than within theoretical mathematics. It means "does not contradict". Nothing more, nothing less.

Given the availability of terms such as "proves," "indicates," "suggests," or more evocative terms such as "raises the distinct possibility that," why did the USADA decide to use the curious term "consistent with"? Since they surely spent a lot of time, and consulted with a number of lawyers, in drafting their letter, their choice of wording was clearly deliberate. Why choose a term that means "does not contradict"?

After all, I can say "Drinking milk as a child is (fully) consistent with using crack cocaine as an adult." Should we take that as evidence that milk producers are to blame for adult drug use? Of course not. But this example has exactly the same logical heart, and the same evidentiary force, as the USADA letter's "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."

Why not say "suggest" or "indicates"? They fall well short of "proof", but they do carry some weight.

"Does not contradict" is, then, it appears, a key part of their case against Armstrong. In which case, I find it troubling. The USA should have far higher standards of proof than that.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
First, he passed all his tests. And second, if he had failed a drug test, and brought in 10 people to testify that they were with him every minute of every day leading up to the test and he never ingested anything, never injected anything, never doped his blood, would we be having this debate today? No, because he would have failed a drug test, and all the testimony in the world wouldn’t matter.

It can’t work both ways. Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn’t.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Sep 28, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
I can spot a small man in a split second, and call him out.
... and if needs be - dick slap him into submission.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 29, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
Mr. Armstrong is doing a triathlon in San Diego this weekend.

Opinions vary.

Why does the treatment of O-ffenders vary so much?



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 29, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
granstar

Social climber
Irving, TX
Sep 30, 2012 - 01:10am PT
Hi Chief! Good to see you are still on here. This is first time I've been on in quite a while and was hoping to see some familiar faces. Hope you are well. Yeah such a sad story and know like most everyone else was hoping he did things the right way and was clean, but unfortunately doesn't look that way now. That is definitely a huge blow to cycling with so many of the other big names like Contador getting caught also. I would say my interest in watching or following has definitely dropped.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 30, 2012 - 11:56am PT
I think it can only be good for racing and my interest hasn't dropped.

You can't clean up the sport by ignoring the problems.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Sep 30, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
On March 17th, 2009, LA returned from a training ride in the South of France to find a lab tech waiting for him to give samples for testing. Armstrong refused and had his bodyguards hold the guy outside of his house while he went inside to "take a shower".

He emerged from the house 20+ minutes later and gave the samples. By rule, the subject is not allowed to leave the testers sight before giving the samples. Failure to comply immediately is considered a failed test. Armstrong and his hired goons claimed afterwards the the tester "gave him permission" to shower. The tester claimed otherwise, and of course he would not have done such a thing. Why would he fail to follow his duties as put forth in his job description?

And what was LA doing? Getting clean urine catheterized into his bladder? Masking injections? Only he knows and he won't tell (the truth) anyway.

This tester was from the French anti-doping agency and after a little hemming and hawing the UCI declined to take action against LA. Little wonder the WADA doesn't trust them.

This is just one of the times that LA failed a test, putting the lie to "never tested positive". The tactic of just shouting your lie over and over, louder and louder only works on stupid people.

It strikes me that LA is like the Tea Party candidates to whom facts don't matter, and he appeals to roughly the same crowd. There is no use arguing with those who dont care about facts, Their "minds" are made up.

The thing I find most incredible about LA is that after giving himself cancer and getting a second chance he went right back to doping. How could he be that stupid? He got a miracle once, so now he must think it's his birthright.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 30, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
nick d
Old news but true.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 30, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
Indurain sounds suspicious, he's still stuck in the past. He's still under the spell of the "omerta."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/miguel-indurain-the-image-of-cycling-is-being-ruined_239373

David Millar calling the UCI complicite (sp?).Oops, lost that link. Edit. OK here it is.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/millar-uci-should-own-up-to-cyclings-doping-past_239502

Vaughters was there as well. He knows all. He cares about the future of cycling.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/vaughters-outs-garmin-riders-for-past-doping-in-online-forum_237650
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 30, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
The article in the recent Bicycling Magazine really poses the critical question for those who care about the sport.
"Now What?"

You naive ones need to catch up.
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