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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
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Yeah it's just such a bummer for the NRA that all the real whackos use guns to do their slaughtering.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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Which weapons are/should be banned from public ownership or use? Can you think of any? Does such a ban violate the second amendment?
Why are those weapons banned or illegal in the first place?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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Shack instead of trying to change the subject with a strawman why not answer the question?
And explosives are regulated. You can buy gasoline but things like TNT or c4 are more regulated. Just like you should be able to buy a shogun that holds 5 shells but not one that takes replaceable clips IMO.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
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Yeah it's just such a bummer for the NRA that all the real whackos use guns to do their slaughtering.
Right....like McVeigh or Kaczynski.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Well, if bad guys can obtain fertilizer components then I too should be free to do so
they should not have an unfair advantage over law abiding citizens
therefore: fertilizer components should not be regulated
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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Fet, you think it's that easy to eliminate hi-cap magazines?
They're illegal in California. But they're everywhere.
You can get them easier than you can get 10 rounders sometimes.
How often is there a gun related crime, where there was more than 10 shots fired from the same magazine/gun, compared to a .22, 9mm, .40, a few shots fired?
It's VERY RARE.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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Shack instead of trying to change the subject with a strawman why not answer the question?
Not a strawman argument. Are you denying that banning pools would relult in less drownings?
The answer, Fet, is that guns are already regulated too and even an immediate ban on hi-cap mags will not REDUCE the number that already exist.
It will not prevent anyone who is already willing to murder, from breaking the law and obtaining anything they want illegally.
If there was some way to magically make that happen, I just might agree with you.
therefore: fertilizer components should not be regulated Do you think Ammonium Nitrate is not widely available? then you don't know where to look. Want to take a guess what the main ingredient in instant "cold Paks" is? Do you think large quantities couldn't be stolen very easily from a farm or supply house?
But if it makes you feel safer to believe that, then go right ahead.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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true, Shack
but does not a ban on new sales of high cap clicks reduce their total number?
over time of course?
of course it will, if you don't make them, there will be less of them
but Shack, given that you personally are presumably well armed by now and no one will be coming to take away your armament,
I am interested to hear your own proposals for lessening gun related deaths in America?
and if you don't have any ideas, that's ok too
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
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but does not a ban on new sales of high cap clicks reduce their total number?
over time of course?
only if they rusted away or dissolved by themselves.
How would it reduce the number at all. There just wouldn't be any more new ones made....except of course they would still be made for LE and Military and we all know those would never find there way to the black market.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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Pools are regulated.
Pools are property. Pools are insured. Pools are easy to sue.
Gun insurance, hmmm.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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Howzit sailin' on DNile?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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Who's in denial? About what?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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what are your own thoughts on reducing the number of gun deaths, Shack?
again, its ok to say if you don't have any ideas
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
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First Amendment is too hardcore for me.
Shack will take this
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
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you think it's that easy to eliminate hi-cap magazines?
No you can't and won't eliminate them. Usually when things are banned old ones are grandfathered in. The idea is to reduce the number available over time vs. how many more would exist if you did nothing.
How do you get them easier than 10 rounders? I can go buy 10 rounders anywhere. It's illegal to sell higher capacity.
Shack that is a strawman argument. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position Pools are not guns. Even though pools aren't weapons they are regulated too, e.g. you have to have a fence around a pool so the neighborhood kids don't fall in and drown.
an immediate ban on hi-cap mags will not REDUCE the number that already exist. It will not prevent anyone who is already willing to murder, from breaking the law and obtaining anything they want illegally.
Yes it won't reduce those that already exist but it will mean less are available in the future. And yes anyone who really wants one will be able to get one. But the crazy guys like the CO guy will be less likely to have one if they are illegal vs. if you can buy them legally at wal mart. A lot of guns and clips illegals have come from people that bought them legally, the harder you make it to get highly destructive weapons the less the will end up in the hands of bad guys.
I really don't think it makes any difference to my self defense capability if I have a 5 shot semi-automatic 12 gauge vs. a rifle with 30 rounds. But I don't want some psycho going off with a 30 or 100 round mag.
It is a challenge because personally I'd like to go out in the desert and blow things to bits with a fully automatic uzi with a 100 round clip, but policy wise I know not having those around means less chance of a bad guy getting them.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 25, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
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Bare arms
bear arms
arm bears
arm bares
armadillos
armored dildos
A bike lock won't stop a determined thief but it will deter a joy rider.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 25, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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Norton,
There is no idea that is going to stop crazy people from doing crazy things.
That said, the best way in my opinion to reduce the number of preventable deaths and injuries from guns is education.
Teach young people about the proper handling of guns, about the dangers of guns, and they will see with their own eyes what destruction guns are capable of.
By imparting real experience with guns and eliminating the curiosity factor,
I believe many accident would be prevented.
Otherwise, to most people that are unfamiliar with guns, that maybe never even touched one much less shot one, they are mysterious and they only know what they've seen on tv. The inexperienced might consider using a gun without knowing the full implications of that choice.
Similar to educating people about drug use.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Jul 25, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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This guy has the right to BEAR arms, get it? :D
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 25, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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Looks like he couldn't bear the bear but he does have bare arms bearing arms.
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