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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 23, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
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still waiting........
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 24, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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and waiting.....
Maybe I should start a new topic since it's harnesses I'm wanting answers about and this thread has drifted a bit?
Erik
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 24, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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omg just read about the harness problem - another return to MEC - I was experiencing tail creep at the buckle too, at least that was my belief
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 24, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
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Maybe I should be more clear what I'm waiting for.......
I am waiting for......
Coz to provide facts that demonstrate this so called unsafe harness design. This would include testing, pictures, or a concise written description for his accusations. He has not done so...... He just keeps spewing his dislike for anything BD.
or
Werner to provide some supportive information since he has stated "Lo and behold I now understand ....... "
or
SofCookay to back up "I get what Coz is saying and he is correct. I'll see if I can post some pics to clarify. "
So far I have seen NOTHING to support this argument. I do know these things can take some time but I will keep asking.
Erik
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 24, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
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Thanks Dingus! Now we are getting somewhere.
Next things that need to be clarified is to confirm with Coz that this is indeed one of the models he is talking about and confirm the configuration of how the harness would be pulled in one direction by the belay loop and in another direction by the rope (tied into both upper and lower points).
Any chance you can provide a follow up picture of this Dingus?
Then testing is in order.......
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 24, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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LoL!Dingus!
(edit) Dingus you deleted your post... :-))
How about confirming for me that even if the "pocket" were to fail you would still have a continuous section of nylon tape to the buckle and as far as you can tell going the other way around the waist? Your pictures appear to show this configuration.
What kind of load does it take to rip apart to solid bar tacks? Anyone know?
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Apr 24, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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lr,
Your incessantly demanding tone is justified by what exactly?
Draw a frikin' picture.
For example, if a climber were to attach himself to a hanging belay through the waist tie-in loop only (huge error) and catch a fall directly onto the belay loop, forces would be pulling the bartacks apart. If the 4 bartacks fail, the belay loop is on the leg loops, the belayer is no longer attached to the belay--goodnight.
I wear and whip on BD harnesses (loved that Petzl Jump, though). The flaw is way down on my list of worries climbing. BUT, I didn't see it, either. Coz has a point, one that he does not take credit for developing.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 24, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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Tarek I love the Petzl jump too.
Still using them.
I hate those Black Diamond harnesses and not because of the so called flaw.
Just ugly looking and inefficient harnesses.
Labrat your incessantly demanding tone would have gotten you some verbal flogging but Tarek already did the justice.
I can't believe you are so obsessive with all this.
Way to go Dingus too :-)
What me worry .....
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Apr 24, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
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I have checked our two BD regular harnesses, one in the shop, and my wall harness and it only takes the blowing of the two bar tacks to be out of there. Interestingly, on the new harnesses the tail that demonstrates that the end of the webbing is at the bar tacks is now covered with a nylon sheath, giving the "impression" that the webbing goes further into the body of the harness. It does not.
This is especially important in the wall harness, where people are often tied in with just their daisy chains which are static and girth hitched to the waist loop or belay loop. Two bar tacks between you and the great beyond if you girth hitch your two/three daisies and aren't in the rope.
Additionally, a static daisy fall taken on lead (not exactly unheard of) even if you are tied into the rope, could disconnect everything but the leg loops from the rope.
Of course, no failures on the record so maybe they are "special" bar tacks? They don't look much beefier than the two that space the BD daisy chains
Kate
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 25, 2012 - 01:44am PT
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What kind of load does it take to rip apart to solid bar tacks? Anyone know?
To answer your question labrat I pulled this off the BD website warning on daisy chain failures:
"Basically, it’s possible that when you clip a second loop, or pocket of your daisy, to the main carabiner, attached to the end loop of your daisy, that the end result MAY really be the biner just being clipped across the tack of the pocket, and therefore being really, REALLY weak—as low as 500 pounds. Below is a video that clearly shows the danger. You may have to watch it a few times, because it’s pretty freaker crazy, and no, I’m not a magician."
(Emphasis is mine.)
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 25, 2012 - 02:51am PT
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I looked at the photos and I still don't see the problem. I usually tie-in around both the leg loops and the waist part of the harness so I can't see the "two bar tack" problem.
The belay/rappel loop goes through the leg loops and waist part of the harness, as well, so I don't see a problem there if you are using the harness correctly.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Apr 25, 2012 - 09:56am PT
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Isn't the buckle conected with bar-tacks as well. Are all bar-tacks created equal?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 25, 2012 - 10:33am PT
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On my way back from NYC I had breakfast yesterday with one of my favorite people, BD founder Maria.
She already knows why Metcalf is one of my least favorite people but, having drunk the Kool-aid for so many years I fear that she is too close to see how the corporate culture has morphed.
And you can't lay this at Kanders' feet. It is more like BD changed to to fit his archetype. It doesn't take much smarts to see that, as always, greed is not "good"; it corrupts.
Three words are the remedy;
BOYCOTT BLACK DIAMOND!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 25, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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A bar tack is not a bar tack is not a bar tack. You guys ain't going to figure this out on line.
Get a harness, send it to one of the online gear wreckers, and let them wreck it. They will give you some numbers that will at least make some sense. There are like 3 guys doing this here on the Taco.
If this is a 15 year "problem" and the problem has never shown up, it hardly seems to be fatal. There would be stiffs stacked like cord wood all over the place if this failure method was happening. Has there been even one reported case? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but in all those climber hours, has it happened? I don't own a BD Harness and barely have a grasp on how the failure might happen, but still.... get some real numbers, then bring out the pitchforks.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 25, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Put on yer BD harness and tie in to it "wrong" with a 30 foot static line and huck yerself off a building with a bunch of mattresses at the bottom.
If it fails you'll then know if there's anything to worry about. :-)
When I saw "the potential" so called flaw I realized what coz was talking about.
That was the lo and behold.
Not that I thought anyone was gonna die tomorrow.
Russ said it better than anyone up post .....
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Apr 25, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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I'm thinking put on your harness, tie into a 100 foot rope and jump off a 50 foot building.
That will put it to rest for anyone who's BD harness is giving them nightmares.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Apr 25, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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Russ is right. These bartacks are not daisy chain bartacks, nor is the webbing daisy chain webbing. It's way stronger than tubular webbing, for example. I'm not dumping my harness, either.
As we all know, however, even one fatality due to a design flaw with this much jabbering behind it would be extremely costly for BD, so it's not really about the numbers. It's about the amount of effort/cost required to modify the design, if needed. I may be naive, but I'd bet that BD has tested the possible misuse of their harnesses and are satisfied with the results. If you tie in through a gear loop (has happened), after all, yer gonna die, so we know there are also acceptable scenarios of potential misuse.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 25, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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I'm still not seeing it....
Could somebody draw a really simple picture of what the situation is that could cause that harness to fail?
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 25, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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Still wouldn't it be smart of them to redesign an intellectually more secure tie in point ?
"Perception is everything" - Don Juan, Journey to Itxlan
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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Apr 25, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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If you tie in through a gear loop (has happened), after all, yer gonna die, so we know there are also acceptable scenarios of potential misuse.
Metolius' gear loops are rated to 10 kn. I believe BD was having issues with their gear loops breaking under normal circumstances even. So maybe say "if you tie into the gear loop of a BD harness yer gonna die."
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