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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 12, 2011 - 11:33am PT
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Yeah socialism is much better. Have a huge class of peasants mired in poverty working so the party leaders live in luxury and make bad decisions.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
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Oct 12, 2011 - 11:35am PT
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You go ahead and let fools define socialism for you if it makes you feel better.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 12, 2011 - 11:45am PT
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Gary it must be you that doesn't understand the textbook definition of socialism. The means of production are state or commonly owned. It's a recipe for disaster. Look at the first European people to come to America, they tried socialism and almost starved to death. They switched to a capitalist model with some sharing and production went way up. Pure socialism is against human nature.
The problem now is the haves aren't sharing quite enough with the have nots, and over time that is not sustainable because all the wealth will be held in very few hands. It might not be 'fair' to force the rich to share some of their wealth with the rest of society but it is pragmatic and necessary.
We complain a lot but America's model IS very good, we just need to tweak it a bit. The median household income with the first half of households earning less than the median household income and the other half earning more is #2 in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 12, 2011 - 11:52am PT
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 12, 2011 - 11:55am PT
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I was going to post about crackhead's chart on the last page LOL. A heritage foundation chart LMAO. Anyone posting something from them has their blinders firmly attached.
Notice how the chart breaks welfare spending into decades. It's the same trick they pulled on the deficit charts blaming Obama for the mess Bush created. Welfare spending skyrocketed under Bush and actually goes down under Obama but they present it in such a way (lumping together the decade after Bush's big increase) so it looks like Obama increased it. Typical B.S. The heritage foundation is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Here's what the actual data shows:
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1930_2016USb_12s1li111mcn_40t_40_Welfare_Spending_Chart
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 12, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
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It's the job of corporations to make money (shareholder value) and there's nothing wrong with that. They help create the wealth that drives the economy. Part of the governments job is to make sure everyone CAN participate and have reasonable living/working conditions. I like the Tea Parties calls for small govt. but many of them actually mean they want to take away that function from the govt., so I'm glad we have the 99%ers to even them out.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 12, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
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TGT would rather have this than the Unicorn.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
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Oct 12, 2011 - 12:39pm PT
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Gary it must be you that doesn't understand the textbook definition of socialism. The means of production are state or commonly owned.
The Fet, I'm not sure where you got your definition of socialism, but mine comes from Norman Thomas, Eugene Debs, and Michael Harrington, leaders of the old Socialist Party.
The means of production are not state owned. Important facets of the economy would be publicly owned, utilities, transportation, etc. Most of the economy would be privately held. Small business would thrive when not being crushed by monopolies, for example.
Take a look at Forbes Magazine's list of the best cities in the world in which to live. They are all located in the social democracies.
And no, the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China don't count as socialist. Who knows what China is. The USSR was bureaucratic collectivism.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
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Oct 12, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
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However, "I am entitled to your wealth because I draw air on the planet" is another issue altogether and the two get conflated when they are actually very different animals. I would say many of the "Wall Street protesters" have conflated these two issues.
I'd say you have conflated the issue. You look at the parasites and call them the "job creators", when it is they that have been created by jobs. Our work has made them rich. You can feel good about being robbed if you like, I don't.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
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) Put a cap on credit card interest rates to end usury. Today, more than a quarter of all credit card holders in this country are paying interest rates above 20 percent and as high as 59 percent.
yes war,
and i am certain that the banks pointed a gun at credit card users heads to get them to spend beyond their means too....if people are stupid enough to get into that kind of mess is it really the banks fault? do you believe in any kind of personal accountability? i didnt think so.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
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The 1%ers, the rich elite of the World just don't get it.
They fail time and time again. "The Ebenezer Scrooges of the World," the rich powerful elite of the World do not get it. They fail to understand in this life what they are supposed to do with their wealth, and hoard away their wealth, and for what? But what they don't understand is that in the next life they lose for eternity. You can't take any of your Earthly wealth beyond the grave. None of it. What you do in this life does matter in the next, whether you think so or not. It doesn't matter if you are atheist, agnostic, or a true believer.
Why not give most of the wealth away? Take care of your immediate family and your relatives first (you have a Biblical obligation to do so), and give away the rest to make jobs, home the homeless, feed the poor, care for the sick etc. etc. So much good can be done, from the goodness of your heart.
We are not a poor country. We have plenty of wealth. The problem is that we are a nation very poor in compassion for our own. The rich powerful elite of the world hoard away their wealth. The Lazarus's of the World beg at their doorsteps, and they have no compassion as they step over others while they suffer, and they do not care.
It is pretty easy to understand.
It is about compassion. Good ethics. Good morality. "The Golden Rule."
GOD is on the side of the 99% ers . . .
The Fixx: "How Much is Enough?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xcuGBQWswg
The Fixx: "No one has to cry"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74dlhTr9H50
The Bible on the Poor or, Why God is a liberal
http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
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LEB,
You don't owe Gary anything more, but because you have a good heart and realize that all your wealth really is not of your own doing completely, and because without other people you have no wealth, you decide to give your employees bonuses and you "spread the wealth."
You also decide to set-up a worthy social non-profit cause or fund one out of your profits that you deem you can afford to do. You decide to give back to the community.
You also allow those who are hungry to eat from the leftover fruit from your property and you put them out for those who need it to take it freely.
That is the right thing to do.
The Bible on the Poor or, Why God is a liberal
http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html
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Gary
climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
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Oct 12, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
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OK the "big bucks" roll in after xyz years. So now, Gary, what do I own you beyond the wages which you and I agreed to and which you deemed was fair.
Nothing. You are entitled to the fruit of your hard work, just as everyone else is.
The capitalist is entitled to the full fruit of his labors, also. It's when he wants what the rest of us produce that causes trouble.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 12, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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Man that is funny. Lois' utopia. Where the wonderful sweet landowner takes care of its workers. hahaha.. too funny.
What is owed to the worker? Nothing. Unless you agreed to a retirement program. Because lets face it, no matter how much you might wish it were otherwise, most people aren't smart enough, or disciplined enough, to set up a safe retirement for themselves.
What is owed to the country? A lot, since without the countries help, someone bigger and stronger would have just taken your farm. Or your neighbor could have decided he didn't like your trees and sprayed them with roundup, or polluted your water supply with the toxic waste from his manufacturing plant because he is bigger and wealthier then you. Or some mafia dude could just come in and tell you that you owe him a monthly protection fee of 80 percent of your profit.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 12, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
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So the government has to take care of almost everyone??????????? Comrade Moosie
If by taking care of you mean design a sustainable retirement program that covers everyone and is funded by everyone, then yes, I think that is wise.
I forgot to add some things to Loisland.
In taking care of her workers wife, she gives her a medicine that isn't tested because there is no FDA and it paralysis her workers wife. Then, because her worker is now exhausted because he has to care for his wife, their children and do his job, while out working on the trees he falls asleep and the tree chipper shreds his arm. So now Lois is responsible for a worker who can't work, and his wife.
Or.. she could just toss them out into the street.
Meanwhile.. Her trees are dying from lack of care, so she hires another worker, who turns out to be a drunk and he smashes her truck into her neighbors child, injuring the child and now she is being sued for that.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:02pm PT
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the instantly went straight after women and minorities to abuse with their lies and deceits
war,
are you saying women and minorities have inferior intellect and therefore do not understand the terms of their loan?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
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well, white women don't have inferior intellects
but it is well known that minorities do
Greed is good. Why not prey on the mentally defenseless?
I mean, how ya gonna make a real good living otherwise?
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