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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
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Feb 27, 2010 - 12:58am PT
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I got yer sauce, bitch.
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 27, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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It doesn't become you, Cap, calling LEB that.
Since when does this law suddenly allow people to pack in a Park? If you want to have a gun in your car, you will do so. What's the big deal? Do you really believe this changes anything?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
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Feb 27, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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That shoe fits.
I ain't gonna lose any sleep over it.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:06am PT
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Reply to Mojede, re: Bison. They can really be apain in the butt. I live on a ranch in the Laramie range, SW of Douglas. One of the neighbors used to raise bison; one evening I was driving home from town and there were 3 bison bedded down blocking my driveway. I backed away and used my secondary entrance, having seen the neighbor's pickup (trashed from being hammered by unruly critters). My ultimate solution was carrying a 20 ga. shotgun loaded with bird shot. Not lethal, but my solution to the "bison-herding" problem. They move out smartly with a blast of #6 birdshot in the ass. It only stung them from 50 feet, and didn't penetrate their thick hides. After several incidents, like them eating 30 of my large round bales of hay, the neighbor was forced to sell them. No, I was never paid for the hay, either. My loss was $1500.
Conclusion: the gun was just another "tool in the toolbox."
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:17am PT
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Rokjox: You're certainly right about Organ Pipe NP being dangerous. In 2001, I was attending a scientific conference in Tucson, early May. My buddy that I was hiking with in the off times went down to OPNP in a rented Durango. He left after spotting a group of 30 "illegals" running across the road in front of him. The Ranger advised him to "get the hell out." This was in broad daylight. We wound up spending most of the time in Saguaro NP instead.
P.S. My friend WASN'T packing; I had my piece with me on the trip, but wasn't along.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:51am PT
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I can't wait to drive my VW Westflia Syncro with my 50 cal mounted on the rooftop into the National Parks. You can't ever be too careful. Killer attack squirrels? No problem. I can take care of that. (Lol)
I can see carrying a gun into some remote National Parks for Grizzly protection, and people that need to should do that, but carrying guns into parks will only encourage using them. The slightest provocation by some unknown natural yet hungry rodent and they are gonna get blown away by some terrified city slicker. Marmots will be enemy #1 for folks. Marmots will now have a bounty on their head.
And I don't want to encourage illegal target shooting in the backcountry, and especially in parks, nor do I want to hear it. Can't tell you how many times I have heard full-auto machine guns in some of the remote areas around SoCal. Dang. Thought I was back at Fort Benning, GA. Now I can't do anything about that, since it was BLM of Forest Service land, but full auto is certainly illegal. C'mon people.
I'm for the Bill of Rights. I'm not trying to take anyone's gun away. You have a right to have them. But you should also know when to leave them home. Common sense. If you are worried about self defense from your fellow mankind, pack mace or a tazer. Carry a Satellite phone.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 27, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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Idealism and Realism. The intellectuals' yin and yang.
people are really stupid. and if a bullet keeps them from ruining good people's lives...so be it.
2. I have no gun but... cops come after the fact, crime is going up and i've got a new baby and wife and home I have to protect. We live near gangland. So the thought has crossed my mind. I also know a man in jail because he killed his daughters abusive boyfriend (the bullet passed through and hit the daughter) thats irony. Shitty situations abound.
If the laws really worked .....?
My point is that I'd rather waste a dangerous meth-head and live with the consequences than be unable to protect my family from same. When I was single I could run away. Not so much anymore.
When I lived in Switzerland I learned that most Swiss have guns at home(and military training). Very low murder rates. Guns are very democratic. If every unfortunate Islamic woman in Afghanistan who fears the stick had a 22 under her burka the Taliban kooks (yeah I said it) might think twice.
3. The Death Penalty is a similar case. Don't like it, doesn't work, however.... The guy who threw his infant in the icy river this week deserves it. Preferably the mom in law could have recalled him with a saturday night special and saved the baby.
4. Who is responsible for evil in the world? If you think one race or sex is responsible for wars you are mistaken. Every society great or small does good and bad. Lets look for role models... can't really think of any. Actually freedom and democracy and equality are pretty good goals. I would like the corrupt f*#ks in Washington to have a healthy respect for the will of the people.
My ancestors are European and we fought against Religious rule, Monarchies, Slavery, Totalitarianism, and Naziism. 300 million people living together 'peacefully' with fine people like yourselves free to improve the country or ignore it and go play in freedom here or abroad is a pretty high bar to reach.
5. Free Tibet? Nice bumper sticker. Authoritarian religious theocracy no thanks. How about free Hawaii, Free Puerto Rico, Free American Samoa, Free Black America, Free the Miwok, Paiute, Mohawk, Choctaw, Esalen....etc. I'm even a kind of Buddhist. Namu Amida Butsu. But so were the Japanese when they waged all out genocide in the 1900's. Even the Buddha can't save you. "isms and schisms"
6. Now, lest you think I'm a right-wing party-line f*#kwit. For the people who fear Socialism. Socialism is to Capitalism as Ikea is to Macdonalds.
Ikea wants you to have $5.00 healthy food (smoked salmon and greens), baby changing and bottle warming, eco-smart respectful homes, health care and a living wage. You tell me what the ism of money control(capital-ism) wants for you. I'll tell you.. They want you in wage/debt slavery, they want to own all the real estate and means of production, and they want to go skiing in Dubai on skiis made from the tallest redwood polished with spotted owl fat doing pure bolivian flake off the fake 44d's of a 80 pound indian Tranny while using their private drone to hunt the last white Rhino in Africa. Thank you Dick Head Cheney.
As Lynnard Skynnard said " Gimme Back My Bullets" i'll find a place to put them.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Feb 27, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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I don't get it.
It is now legal to carry guns in the national parks, but it's illegal to BASE jump. Meaning, you are allowed to kill others (animals or humans) but are not allowed to kill yourself...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
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Rokjox,
I will fully admit I do not know the guns laws. So I can own a M16? How about an M60? A 50 Cal? I preferred the M14 actually. Very accurate weapon much better than the M16 and you could switch to full auto also.
Target shooting is only lawfully allowed where it is allowed. Yes. But you can target shoot in an area in the backcountry where it is legal with a fully automatic weapon? I assumed they where illegal to own.
Teach me. What is the law?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 27, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
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"More than 270 million visitors enter the national parks each year. The probability of becoming a victim of a violent crime there is 1 in 708,333, which is less likely than being struck by lightening over a lifetime, according to a statement by a coalition of park service groups. The national parks continue to be one of the safest places to enjoy a vacation."
But what do I know trapped here in this canyon of obtuse-ness?!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 27, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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If one were to use backcountry users alone to figure this statistic the odds would likely be even higher. How many YNP backcountry murders or attacks occured in the last ten years? How many Lightening related injuries or deaths?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
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Feb 27, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
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Not worthy of my concern, either of ya.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 27, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
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Perhaps a compromise of sorts. You carry your weapons in any national park but protect yourself from lightening by leaving your tinfoil hats at home... yeah?
11 murders in national parks stat includes the many DC parks, east coast urban natl. parks as well.
Again, look up the stats for YNP backcountry or the valley for that matter. How many murders in the last 10 years?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 27, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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Just got home from the CLIMBING GYM, and picked up on this thread again.
HooWah!
Klimmer posed a legitimate question re: automatic weapons and I will also address the comment re: weapons larger than 50 cal.
Any firearm firing a projectile larger than 0.50 inches diameter is defined as a "destructive device" by the gun control act of 1968. There are a lot of these in civilian hands, LEGALLY. They include a .55 cal British Antitank Rifle called a Boyes rifle (named after the designer), a 20 mm Lahti Finnish Antitank rifle, model L39; a Solothurn model S18-1000 20 mm antitank rifle, 2 different 25 mm wheeled antitank guns manufactured in France, and several variaties of 37 mm antitank guns such as the Swedish Bofors and the Rheinmetall PAK 36. There are some states that prohibit ownership of these--mostly the Eastern population centers. Most of these ar also classified as "Curios and Relics," as most are leftovers from W.W. II.
Machine guns or "automatic weapons," is also a big area. Ownership of automatic weapons is legal in something like 38 of the 50 states. On the Federal level, there is no prohibition to ownership to anyone that has neither a felony conviction or a domestic violence misdemeanor.
To obtain one of these firearms from either a Class III Dealer or registered owner, the buyer must first submit a BATF Form 4 and 2 sets of fingerprints, and 2 passport style photos are needed. Also, a transfer tax of $200 is paid to the U.S. Treasury at the time of submission. The prints are sent to NCIC for a complete legal background check to confirm that the buyer has no criminal history. The approved Federal paperwork is then sent to the seller. At that point, you own your piece. The paperwork is valuable as hell, as it identifies the owner of the firearm as a "tax paid" owner. The whole process takes 3 to 5 months.
Machine gun ownership by individuals is prohibited in California and Washington. Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, Idaho, Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming have no restrictions on full auto weapons. Destructive devices, Curios and Relics are legal in all of these states, although California also requires a "Destructive Device Permit."
Hope this answers Klimmers question.
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AstroArlo
Trad climber
Jackson, WY
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Feb 27, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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We should default to protecting each other's freedoms. The majority of gun owners obey the law and have never done harm to another human with them - this is protecting the rights of law abiding citizens, not a bunch of wackos.
Change the scenario a bit. Many people think climbers are crazy and that we waste a bunch of money regulating and rescuing all those wacko climbers, not to mention all the environmental degration. Remember, when the first ascent of the Nose was going on, the rangers wanted to stop the climbers because they were causing dangerous traffic jams.
What would you say if there was a ban on climbing? There ARE some wacko climbers out there who disobey all rules and cause all sorts of problems, and make rescuers risk their lives when they get in trouble. Should we ban climbing because of the few wackos, or should we protect the rights of the majority of climbers, who obey the laws, try to minimize their impacts, and get along with other climbers.
Besides, since when has a law stopped a wacko from killing a bunch of people? Regardless of any law, if they wanted to come into a National Park and kill a bunch of people, they would kill a bunch of people. Do you want everyone to go through airport scanners before they can enter a national park?
How many people are killed by people driving wrecklessly? Should we ban all drivers because of a few crazies?
The bottom line is we need to respect and defend our rights - our constitution says we can have guns. Something we hold dear and near may be the next thing they try to regulate or ban. Just look at the furor over having to have a permit to climb Half Dome on the weekend!
And by the way, I don't own any guns.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 27, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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Rokjox: Remember what "Malone" (portryed by Sean Connery) in the move "Untouchables" said: "Never bring a knife to a gunfight."
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 27, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
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Not all firearms larger than 50 caliber as classified as destructive devices. There is an exception for sporting arms, which is why you can get "elephant" guns in .577, 600 and 700 caliber. Also shotguns firing slugs are allowed.
So long as your local law enforcement is will sign the paperwork, you can get machine guns, silencers and other class III weapons.
FYI, legally transferred M-16's run about $15,000. There was a law in 1988 that made it illegal to transer automatic rifles manufactured after 1988, thus fixing the number of guns legally transferable, and dramatically driving up prices.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 27, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
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Just to clarify, you have to go through what Brokedownclimber described above FOR EACH automatic firearm acquired. It is not a permit that allows you to buy as many as you want.
Tolman, wasn’t that 1986, after the FBI shootout in Miami…?
Want a (legal) machine gun? Here’s where to look…
Click on “NFA Firearms”:
http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Feb 27, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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To further clarify what Tolman_paul stated, the specific firearms he named are also classified as "antiques" and are over 50 years old. A newly manufactured > .50 cal weapon is still a destructive device regardless of intended use.
It was the 1986 McClure-Volkmer act that prohibits any manufacture of new machine guns other than for law enforcement or military.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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I would wager that I have had more "real" experience with destructive weapons than 99.9% of ST'ers. I always wonder when religious, gun and political threads get hundreds of posts, an order of magnitude more than climbing ones. I guess as an American the reason should be obvious.
We can argue, ad nauseam, about various weapons and there relative merits or inclusions on certain lists. The fact remains that one of the really sick things in our culture is our morbid fascination with weapons. The NRA will defend tooth and nail the unrestricted right of Americans to have any weapon they desire. For what reason? Does a big weapon compensate for a small dick? I'm not against ownership of weapons, I just think that such ownership should be managed in a way that benefits society as a whole and not just guys with small dick syndrome.
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