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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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and I am being accused of throwing out the Old Testament?? I said nothing of the such.
You said the stoning laws were out. But Jesus never said that. So....?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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If Karl hadn't said it I was going to.
I agree with TripL7 that the atheists are using the Old Testament to skewer Christianity,
but
the Biblical literalists do the same thing all the time. They say they believe in a God of love and then proceed to threaten hell fire and brimstone based on the Old Testament.
Make a choice guys.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Cintune-
What Jesus said was to let anyone who had not sinned cast the first stone.
Same thing as outlawing it for his followers but way more clever and subtle.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan- "cast the first stone"
Thanks, well said!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Um, sure. And he also said ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
So which was it? Same go-round with "an eye for an eye" vs. "turn the other cheek." Exactly which parts of Mosaic law did Jesus/God unaccountably change his mind about, and which parts still stand? And if some parts got revised, why are they still in the Big Book?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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cintune- "I came to fulfill the law"
I just explained that...twice!! He fulfilled the Old Testament law by being the perfect sacrifice(without sin/unblemished lamb)once and for all. That is the New Covenant.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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That's not an explanation; it's changing the subject.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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cintune!
The point is your either under the law and will be judged by it or Jesus Christ will stand in your place.
As far as the Old Testament, they are obvious. Whatever ones fall under the Ten Commandments, and such ones in regards to loving and obeying God and your neighbor as yourself(they are covered/discussed in the New Testament). I just named one up-thread...Deut. 6:13 "You shall fear only the Lord your God...." Fear=revere/respect...
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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So that brings it back to sin all you want and then pull the Jesus card out on Judgement Day for a free pass into heaven, right?
See, that's just creepy.
Why not just try to do the right thing and be accountable for your failings to others, and then let "eternity" sort its own self out?
(Got to get some sleep now, there'll be snow to shovel in the morning.)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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What are you talking about??
You sin all you want as a Christian and you will be one miserable, sick soul...or dead. Remember the verse I just quoted above..."You shall fear only..." And here is another one "To know Him is to love Him" If you love your wife you are not going to go out and cheat on her! It is even more so with Christ. We, the Church as a whole, are known as the "Bride of Christ". It is a love relationship.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"I came to fulfill the law"
Jesus fulfilled the law by paying the full price of judgement on the cross!
That we can now be granted into by His grace!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Cintune said:
And he also said ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
So which was it? Same go-round with "an eye for an eye" vs. "turn the other cheek." Exactly which parts of Mosaic law did Jesus/God unaccountably change his mind about, and which parts still stand? And if some parts got revised, why are they still in the Big Book?
Jesus and the early Christians lived in a particular space and time. No doubt Jesus would have had an even shorter than 3 year ministry if he had advocated overturning the Mosaic law altogether.
As it was, most people in his own ethnic group were not ready at that time to take it to a more subtle level, though many oppressed people in the pagan Roman empire were, much to the surprise of the early Jewish apostles who remained attached to their own tradition and so decided to keep large parts of it. In fact, a few modern day Christian churches have dropped the Old Testament altogether.
Judaism did not stand still however, as many modern day Christians seem to think, and eventually evolved their own kinder gentler interpretation of things but on their own terms without the large scale input of non Jewish pagans.
Personally, I've never met a Jewish person who took the Torah or Old Testament literally, although some portion of the 23% of Orthodox Jews in America probably do. I therefore find it mystifying why certain Christians need to interpret it literally. Some even go so far as to say that the Temple of Solomon must be rebuilt and animal sacrifice re-instituted before Jesus can come back?! Because these types of believers are the staunchest supporters of Israel, they are tolerated there even though their ideas are not supported by any modern Jew.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Paul-
Further upthread (I know going back is daunting) there was a long discussion about the differences between religion and spirituality and mysticism and literalism. If you had read it you would never equate mystics with litteral and intolerant religionists. In fact, mystics have been some of the major targets of the literalist contingent.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Does our bacterial and viral load go to heaven with us? Seems like they're being robbed if not given all they do for us.
About eight percent of human genetic material comes from a virus and not from our ancestors, according to a new study. The research shows that the genomes of humans and other mammals contain DNA derived from the insertion of bornaviruses, RNA viruses whose replication and transcription takes place in the nucleus.
That's one busy designer...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan wrote
Jesus and the early Christians lived in a particular space and time. No doubt Jesus would have had an even shorter than 3 year ministry if he had advocated overturning the Mosaic law altogether.
As it was, most people in his own ethnic group were not ready at that time to take it to a more subtle level, though many oppressed people in the pagan Roman empire were, much to the surprise of the early Jewish apostles who remained attached to their own tradition and so decided to keep large parts of it. In fact, a few modern day Christian churches have dropped the Old Testament altogether.
Judaism did not stand still however, as many modern day Christians seem to think, and eventually evolved their own kinder gentler interpretation of things but on their own terms without the large scale input of non Jewish pagans.
Personally, I've never met a Jewish person who took the Torah or Old Testament literally, although some portion of the 23% of Orthodox Jews in America probably do. I therefore find it mystifying why certain Christians need to interpret it literally. Some even go so far as to say that the Temple of Solomon must be rebuilt and animal sacrifice re-instituted before Jesus can come back?! However, because these types of believers are the staunchest supporters of Israel, they are tolerated there even though their ideas are not supported by any modern Jew.
That's a fine post Jan, and in line with the research I've been doing on the context of the bible. To understand what Jesus says, it's important to understand 1st century Judaism, the Roman context of occupied "Israel" and the pagan situation outside of the holy land where Christianity finally gained popularity. It didn't catch on nearly as strong around Jerusalam.
and one vivid controversy on the very early church was what to do about non-jews wanting to Join. Paul was all for it, the apostles were skeptical. Paul was bringing in the converts and won the day. One of the hotly contested topics concerned whether converts needed to become circumcised or not. Strong feelings on both sides. Getting circumcised would be a steep price of admission in pre-surgical times for grown men embracing Christianity. Some got snipped!
Fortunately, for many, Paul told the pagan Christians to spare the rod...
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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So Jan, does all this 'modern' re-interpretation mean you think Jesus was just a regular human, not of virgin birth, and not the son of god? Karl?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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healeyje-
I can only speak for myself and my thinking has been heavily influenced by 12 generations of Quakers on my mother's side and by my own life among Hindus and Buddhists for the past 30 years.
Personally, I think we are all sons and daughters of God and that we all have the potential to become like Jesus. He even said at one point, "Greater things than I have done, you can do".
Historically, I understand why the Apostle Paul developed the idea of Jesus as the substitutionary sacrifice based on animal sacrifices done in the Temple at Jerusalem during that time. However, I never agreed with that interpretation even as a small child. The word savior also never did much for me because I was never able to believe, even as a small child, that God needed his own son to be tortured and killed in order for humans to make spiritual progress. I have also always thought that we have to do most of the work ourselves, that there is no magical formula that can be said to make instant progress.
This does not mean however, that I think of Jesus as a mere man and I would never call him my buddy as some do. Rather, I see him as the way shower, as a guru and a Boddhisattva, and even an Avatar, if you know what those words mean.
I also see the major events in his life as external markers of internal mystical experiences that we all go through. Whether the virgin birth was an historical event or not, does not in the least change the message. I do see it as an internal event that all people of all religions must pass through however, in order to progress on the path.
Perhaps I am wrong in some of my interpretations, but since Jesus himself repeatedly said that our attitude and our actions are more important than our beliefs, I do not fear for the future. I also feel certain that many who have never heard his name, or do not call themselves his followers for various reasons, will be found to be closer to him than many who insist that their interpretation is the right one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Hmmm, can't quite tell in all that if that's a yes with regards to son of god in the way most christians and the bible refer to him; or a no, he's just a regular human with a biological mother and father, albiet one who did some remarkable things with his life.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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OK, I'll go on record as saying I don't think he was just a regular human. What or who exactly he was, however, is way above my lowly level of understanding. That's why I just try to follow his teachings.
There is some interesting philsophical work being done in Asia however, by Christian missionaries, in terms of what they call the Cosmic Christ as opposed to the historical Jesus. This means their philosophy is getting very close to that of the Hindus who say that there have been numerous Avatars, incarnations of the second person of the trinity on this planet, and the Buddhists who say their have been multiple Buddhas and Boddhisattvas as well.
If I had to predict what will be the most common Christian interpretation of the significance of Jesus a couple of hundred years in the future, it would be of something similar. Christians of the future will be his followers because he speaks to them personally in a way that the others don't, not because they think he was the one and only.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Good morning. Snow has been duly shoveled, back to school....
So Jan, you clearly must be aware of Kuan Yin/Avalokitesvara? Thousands of years before Jesus was a twinkle in his mum's eye, right? The New Testament certainly doesn't have a lock on compassion and mercy, as if they never existed before. What it does claim to offer is the unsubstantiated "good news" of "eternal life," which has got to be the ultimate carrot on a stick, despite the fact that it's an oxymoronic concept. One can certainly understand the allure, but that's how all fantasies work.
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