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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ed-
Thanks for the post about Ardi from Science. That will make a great reference to put on a web page for my physical anthro classes.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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It seems that the two sides of this issue have reverted to insulting each other again.
To the atheists I will say that Judaism, Christianity and Islam together, still represent less than half the human race so to deny God or condemn religion based on their failings is a very narrow and biased view of both God and human aspirations.
There are many people on this planet who are trying to envision a more modern, scientific, and universal view of religion, most of them using an evolutionary framework to do so. Their efforts are much more interesting than just rehashing the same stuff over and over.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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There are many people on this planet who are trying to envision a more modern, scientific, and universal view of religion, most of them using an evolutionary framework to do so.
I'd say the first problem you have with that concept is it will be completely rejected out of hand by individual religions. The second problem using a concept like the evoloution of religion, is it would seem to imply that all of mankind's religions prior to now were not absolutely true. Remember, many of those beliefs weren't idle - people were sacrificed to gods over beliefs which were held to be true and absolute.
It gets back to the question: are you saying the Greeks, Romans, Mayans, Inca, and thousands of other religions had it 'wrong' or that their beliefs weren't 'true'? Seems like that path is a slippery slope to me...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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God does recognise a country's attempt to follow His Commandments/morals.
America has drifted far from where we began.
Back in the day where they burned witches, had slaves, killed blasphemers, and committed genocide on the indians?
I think we might have even improved since then!
Paying lip service to God in school while engaged in the actions above shouldn't curry favor with any diety
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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healyje-
The idea that a religion is literally true is fortunately not as widespread as many paranoid atheists would like to believe. This is an idea that afflicts only western religions for the most part and only the fundamentalist factions of those.
While it is more amusing to conjure up the most ignorant and bigoted examples of religion that one can currently find, declare that they represent all religions, and then have fun shooting them down, all this accomplishes is reinforcing the biases of both atheists and fundamentalists.
The vast majority of people even within western religion have long ago moved on.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Karl!
There were a total of 14 "witches" killed. Granted 14 to many, by a evil Godless town. And America paid with the blood of over 600,000 young men to correct the injustice of slavery. And racism is still alive in America! What happened to the Native Americans and the slaughter of the great buffalo herds was all gigantic marks against humanity and all part of the obvious inherent flaw of mankind. America hasn't won a war since WW II!
EDIT: Has nothing to do with "paying lip service", it was declaring that God does not exist, and making anyone who believes in a Creator God out to be a fool and archaic moron. Well you better hope your right. Because if I was God, and got booted out of anywhere well...look at the results!!!! Great time to raise a kid in America. They are considering issuing bullet proof vests and six shooters to teachers! And yet if kids gather before school and pray around the flag pole they either get arrested or shot!! Go figure.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The idea that a religion is literally true is fortunately not as widespread...
Not as widespread among who?
While it is more amusing to conjure up the most ignorant and bigoted examples of religion that one can currently find, declare that they represent all religions, and then have fun shooting them down, all this accomplishes is reinforcing the biases of both atheists and fundamentalists.
I wouldn't under any circumstances call the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Mayans, or Inca "ignorant" or "bigoted" - they were however, resolute in their beliefs - probably far more so than people are today. And what represents "all religions" is belief. Again, it would seem to me that you are the one casting those civilizations' somehow childish for holding literal and absolute beliefs.
The vast majority of people even within western religion have long ago moved on.
Wow Jan, that's quite a claim. I'd say the world might not be with you on this one. This seems like a pretty dismissive wave of the hand saying 'educated' adults [or civilizations] have "moved on" [from primitive myth]. Maybe check with Werner on that one as well, he seems pretty resolute about the authoritativeness of Vedic beliefs.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Taking God out of schools wasn't about teachers reading from or "giving lip service to" the Bible in school. They never did back then. I never heard them. And my two older sisters and younger brother never did either. It was about not being allowed to bring a Bible to school, pray in school(I am talking about individually or in small groups before or after school). Or wear any "religious"(meaning Christian)clothing/jewelry. Or allowing campus clubs after school. Or write or give credit to, or speak of belief in God in a written or oral report. Among other things. And the humanistic/survival of the fittest/no absolute right or wrong darwinian Godless dogma that is increasingly preached, insisting there is no God!!
And viola. Welcome to America children. Don't forget your bulletproof vests/condoms and just remember to just say no to drugs and pornagraphy on the internet and perverts! And oh yea, gangs... Compared to the fifty's and sixty's, I'd say things have changed for the worst.
But I shouldn't be all gloom and doom...hopefuly things will change for the better...for the kids sake.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Belief in god = ethics and morality?
Man, that's a stretch under the best of circumstances. That didn't even seem to be the case in the garden of eden (or is that too literal?) let alone here on Earth after god abandoned it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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healeyje-
Most religions on this planet have seen religion as an attempt to understand the Divine, not as absolute truth about the Divine. One can appreciate the beauties of one's religion, and even think that one's own religion is the best for oneself, maybe for all people, without thinking that one has all the answers or that one has to force everyone else to think the same way.
In fact, if you go back in history, most human beings have been illiterate and the majority of people on this planet still are. Therefore they thought/think in symbols, in metaphors and allegories, in parables, not in terms of literal word for word interpretations. In our own culture Biblical literalism is a phenomenon of the last few centuries only, and has never represented nor does it now, represent the majority of Christians.
As for insulting nonwestern people, I dare say that having spent 30 years in Asia, I have more experience with a variety of indigenous people than you, and my experience is that they're sophisticated enough to be able to compare religions without feeling threatened. Indigenous religions emphasize experience and group identity, not written interpretations. Most of all, they understand human intentions and whether one is genuinely curious and open minded or there to sell them on an alternative whether it be religion or secularism.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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TripL7-
You and I have been over the school prayer issue before also and I really don't think it's fair to blame the schools for the decline in civilized behavior among the young. It was always the parents' and religion's job to do that. If children get no ethical training because they're not exposed to religion, that's the fault of the parents for not teaching ethics at home either, or sending them where they could learn. The schools just deal with the results.
As a social scientist I think there are deeper societal reasons at work as well. We have uniquely American problems of assimilating diverse immigrants and dealing with a legacy of racism and deprivation. On top of that, we have the most unequal society among the industrialized countries, with the fewest social services, no doubt co-related with having the largest military and overseas empire of all the industrialized countries.
We also have a culture that measures everything in terms of money and material goods which also looks down on those with less money and goods. We have built our nation on suburbs which have no community center or spirit. We have also marginalized the old so they no longer live with the young or teach them. In general we have emphasized individualism to the exclusion of family and community. We also have porous borders which make it easy for drugs to enter the country and plenty of people have reason to take them. Crime ensues and the young mimic what they see.
Meanwhile, both religionists and atheists waste their time blaming each other.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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So Gobee, do you agree with Jan that most christians have moved beyond bible literalism?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Here are some interesting stats on types of Christians according to /wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members
Catholicism - 1.2 billion
Protestantism - 670 million
Eastern Orthodoxy - 210 million
Oriental Orthodoxy - 75 million
Anglicanism - 82 million
Nontrinitarianism - 27 million
Nestorianism - 1 million
Of these, only a small part of Protestantism claims the Bible is the literal word of God. In fact, they and some of the non trinitarians are the only major branches of Christianity which even emphasize Bible interpretation over sacraments and ritual. Protestant belief and culture has traditionally dominated America but not the world. Even in the U.S. one out of 4 Christians is Roman Catholic.
In addition, Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy have already declared that one can believe in their religion and evolution.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Taking God out of schools wasn't about teachers reading from or "giving lip service to" the Bible in school. They never did back then. I never heard them. And my two older sisters and younger brother never did either. It was about not being allowed to bring a Bible to school, pray in school(I am talking about individually or in small groups before or after school). Or wear any "religious"(meaning Christian)clothing/jewelry. Or allowing campus clubs after school. Or write or give credit to, or speak of belief in God in a written or oral report. Among other things. And the humanistic/survival of the fittest/no absolute right or wrong darwinian Godless dogma that is increasingly preached, insisting there is no God!!
And viola. Welcome to America children. Don't forget your bulletproof vests/condoms and just remember to just say no to drugs and pornagraphy on the internet and perverts! And oh yea, gangs... Compared to the fifty's and sixty's, I'd say things have changed for the worst.
Classic religionist BS.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Isaiah 42:3, a bruised reed he will not break,
and a faintly burning wick he will not quench;
he will faithfully bring forth justice.
A diving accident in 1967 left Joni Eareckson Tada a quadriplegic in a wheelchair. Today, she is an internationally known mouth artist, a talented vocalist, a radio host, an author of 17 books and an advocate for disabled persons worldwide. In this audio story, you’ll meet Joni and hear how she struggled to accept God’s design in her paralysis. http://www.joniearecksontadastory.com/
Joni has done more then ten strong men, she is made perfect in weakness!
God shows His love is real in our weakness, and allows us to share His love with others that are weak!
I also know there are a lot of lessons to learn here, and before we get the keys to the New Heaven and New Earth, we need to trust Him, but it's coming none the less...
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
Jan,
My understanding of the Buddha is when he was growing up at home, his father did not want him to see anything that was not beautiful, not even a dead leaf. But one day outside he saw an old woman, sickness, and death and was shattered and thought his life was a lie, and knew that would befall him.
That was the start of his journey and he renounced all his worldly possessions...
Werner said that without the soul the body is toast,(something like that).
Well we don't take anything with us!
Paul in Phlippians 4:11-13, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
Jesus in Matthew 6:19-24, “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
“The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
God, Jesus, and the Hole Spirit is our treasure! As well as Family, loved ones, friends, the whole world belongs to God, the devil is just a spoiler!
Matthew 16:26, For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
in Matthew 23:37-39, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
For in God we trust in Faith, Hope, and Love, from where comes our help!
Jesus is the Way to the Father...that's a Christian
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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So, is that a yes or a no?
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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Progress and evolution in religion, as in other things, does not necessarily mean that what has preceded was necessarily false. As I see it, one of the threads working its way through the old testament is a movement towards the recognition of articulated belief as idolatry, piggybacked on the concept of a single, omnipotent god. The faith towards which these teaching point requires, on the one hand, a rejection of any concept or articulation of the divine as our own idolatrous creation, and on the other, the recognition that in the weakness of our own limited human perspective, once cast from Eden, we need the crutch of those idols to focus our efforts to achieve faith so that we can leave them behind. There is a similar thread concerning our relationship with the institutions that frame and maintain the idols. The new testament, although not necessarily Jesus, seems to represent a regressive reaction to the more mystical and simultaneously intellectually oriented and less literal or dogmatic faith towards with these threads were moving.
From what I understand, simplistic literalism has been increasing with evangelical teachings and rhetoric that undo much of what had been previously accomplished. I don’t really understand what is going on. But who, aside from the most hateful and cynical, really benefits from convincing people that their faith is tied to factual beliefs that can be disproven by observational science? Sometimes it seems like there is a manipulative institutional intent in teaching outright and obvious lies about basic science or our not too distant history as it relates to religion. Those with a little intellectual curiosity will soon discover the lie and are more likely to leave the institution than to try to fight it over something so outrageous or pathetic, which makes it easier to maintain a compliant, obedient flock.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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As the original poster, I feel obliged to claim number 5000!
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