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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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wes- "Ya all have no idea..."
I often think of how bizarre/out-there it must all sound.
But I am talking simply about a personal relationship. Period!
Come to your own conclusions about all the rest later.
That has nothing to do with it. No one can make you believe, or deny anything. Come to your own conclusions. I did.
But first you need to ask Him if He is real!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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healy!
I was speaking in general terms, if your content with your life fine!
Take a look at the world, youth, drugs, suicide...dead at thirty. Credit card debt, the "American Dream!" Jonesen...striving for what? Never satisfied. Fear of death...your the one living in a delusion!!
Open your eyes, take a look around you!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Like I was saying healy, look at the world(people)!!
What do you have to offer(not everyone is as perfect and content as you!
What do you have to offer them??
I have Jesus Christ...just an offer. Their decision.
What have you got?
All you have is "There is no God" And go ahead and admit it...you despise the name of Jesus Christ! And anybody who claims to know and love Him!
Is that all you have to offer??
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oh, you're talking about all those conditions that those poor humans 'chose'. Like the choice of a child to be brought to term by an alchol and meth addicted mother so that he or she will have diminished capacities and impaired decision making capabilities for a lifetime bad 'choices'. The design doesn't get more intelligent than that. And hey, why does such an intelligent designer include so many congenital defects and failures in their designs? Is the idea that god just likes to be entertained by endlessly random protein defects?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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healy!
I too have spent years working in hospitals, have held preemies in my hands(Martin Luther King Hospital, South L.A.). And have asked those same questions.
Became very bitter and disillusioned in my youth after seeing my best friend(a black kid) being kicked and beaten by racist white kid in high-school. And then he walked five miles home to die on his front porch(waiting for his mom)!
And many other things. I new Jesus was God, after what happened to me at 8yrs old there was no doubt. But I just couldn't understand why He created such a messed up world!
I use to sneak out of my house at night and walk the streets, telling God that when I died I was going to spit in His face when I saw Him! I was a very bitter young man by the time I reached 18.
And all I can say is, call it an epiphany or anything you want. But I saw His holiness and mans(my)darkness. How He had nothing to do with 'progression' of man. Man is responsible! Your so quick to give man all the credit for everything good, and then turn and blame God or any one who believes in a god for all the evil.
Your a very bitter person.
I can relate!!
EDIT: Your also caring and compasionate and rightfuly angry. I do understand!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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The Parable of the Lost Sheep
Luke 15:1-10 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
The Parable of the Lost Coin
“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
The Parable of the Prodigal Son
Luke 15:11-32, And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
“But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.
“Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Rokjox!
RIGHT-ON BRO!!
You are describing the Prodigal Son!
And Gobee is quick to illustrate!
Good work Fellas!!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The idea that humanity has something like “free will” is a stretch. Humans are directed by evolutionary need: the need to reproduce, to protect a territory for that purpose, etc. We are driven by those needs that are often at odds with the imposed morality of any given mythological system. To say we have the free will to choose between a moral dictate born of some mythology and the desires and needs imposed upon us by nature is ridiculous; our choices are weighted by forces over which we have almost no control. It seems “god” has set up a system of entrapment not one of free will, otherwise how is it that we are all sinners?
Paul states in Romans 11:32 that we are only condemned so that god may grant us salvation. This is where Augustine gets his “O felix culpa.” Sin is a function of “gods” pleasure in granting us grace.
Free will is ultimately the believer’s justification for natural evil: evil must exist so that we might have the opportunity to choose. The problem is that our very nature often compels us in our choice. It all makes little sense.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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“free will” is a stretch
Man does not live by bread alone, but we get hungry and there is a lot of stuff we can take in, but with God it's all good, not always fast food?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bitter? I'm not bitter. I am, however, confused about "the designer's" intent when it comes to genetic and congenital birth defects.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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paul roehl- "Romans 11:32 we are only condemned so that God may grant us salvation"
He is talking about the Jews!
They, on a whole rejected Christ as their Messiah.
He is stating that eventually all Jews will be saved! All of Israel(Nation) turn to the Messiah of the Gospels during the Tribulation.
Read it in context to the surrounding verses!
It was prophesied and occurred(that He would turn to the Gentiles).
Entrapment?? If you have no confidence in a Higher Power with a plan for your life. Someone who is capable of intervening in your life, capable of revealing Himself to you! And you CHOOSE to believe that it is a survival of the fittest with no absolute right or wrong. It is simple, it is a choice. You have demonstrated that choice by your beliefs. He is still offering you an escape from your own hopeless eternal destination, separation from Him!!
I surly do not call that entrapment. You choose to not believe/reject Him. So be it. He is not about to force you.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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healyje!
I was born with Spina Bifida Occulta!
I had an open sore lesion, the size of a nickle on my sacrum(very painful) until well into my adult life. Had a very painful surgery at 52yrs old. Pretty much was responsible for my degenerative disk disease and compound bulges and one disk collapse(L5S1) at age 51.
If I was born a decade later, they probably would have strongly recommended that I be aborted in the first trimester! I probably would not have been here to experience this life. I am glad I have had the opportunity, regardless of all the pain and suffering.
I have often wondered and asked why. It has pretty much ruined life as I would have liked to have enjoyed it.
There are certainly lots of worse case scenarios. At least I had bowel and bladder control. But alot of pain. Never ending pain!!!
The world is decaying/dying. So is the solar system/universe. He did not create it that way.
Take it up with Him. He loves you. And offers you HOPE.
His love and grief far exceeds anything that man can comprehend!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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you all take some time out and take this in:
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pagels03/pagels_index.html
"I'm concerned about our country, because one can see how appeals to religion, like those that are currently being made by the religious right, can work in a democracy to subvert all of the values to which they give lip service. It worked brilliantly with the Roman Empire. Beliefs are overrated in Christianity. Religious traditions have to do with a lot more than beliefs.
While the Constitution does protect religious freedom of worship, it's supposed to protect secularism."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sorry to hear about your ongoing pain.
My point is that if we were 'designed', then starting with the combinations of genes, amino acids, proteins, and all the processes entailed in even 'simple' lifeforms, it would mean a 'designer' would have had to have been into the incredible and near infinite minutae of life's biological and chemical processes down to molecular levels. If a 'designer' capable of that - and given that some organisms are much better at repairing genetic defects then others - then it means there is 'intention' around different designs relative to their robustness and hardiness in the face of genetic anomolies. It also would mean that such varying genetic and congenital defects are a deliberate part of the overal design and scheme of life 'as-designed' and 'as-built' - another grand statement of deliberate 'intent'. That is if 'Intelligent Design' were real.
Personally, I think ID is a completely self-condemning concept from an 'intent' and birth defects perspective.
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WBraun
climber
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Just because we are defective and limited we project our own defects and limitations onto perfection does not in any way diminish that perfection in any way whatsoever.
Also secularism is bogus. It's just another secretarian "ism".
It will fail and it is failing as we can see .......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Thanks Ed!
Personally, I have a feeling that this fervor of the so called "Religious Right" had nothing to do with attempting to turn the US into a totalitarian state. At least not any believing Christians. That is totally absurd and an attempt at fear/scare mongering.
And I and many prominent Christian leaders(Pat Robertson etc.)believed it was a big mistake to go into Iraq. All you need to do is read what the Bible says about the country.
I never agreed with the "marriage" of politics and religion. I, and most Christians I know, live life by example(often fail)and strive to be the "salt of the earth". What morals society excepts, is society's choice.
There is no doubt in my mind that the US is on a downward spiral. Look at the past thirty or forty years. I do believe it is a direct result of the rejection of the Ten Commandments and rejection of a belief in God. Plain and simple.
Who removed the Ten Commandments? Liberals, Conservatives? I know it was not Christians! But that was Americas choice.
And that is what Jesus Christ is about CHOICE!
He would never want to subvert His beliefs on anyone. It would be impossible! That would equal=RELIGION!!
He offers a relationship!
God does recognise a country's attempt to follow His Commandments/morals.
America has drifted far from where we began.
I will tell you the truth. When America in 1963 removed God from the classroom, God obliged and left the school yard/system(His presence/protection/influence). Look at the drug/gang/crime/shooting ridden schools of today. The Bible was never taught in schools to begin with. But it did have a spiritual presence. He was that presence, guarding the minds and behaviors of our youth. Believe it or not.
Rome was corrupt. Exactly opposite of what Christ preached.
And America is following that same path.
When the salt is removed, decay results.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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healyje!
Your missing the whole point of the corruption/decay/defect of Creation after the fall. From the infinitesimal/molecular, to the Galactic! What you are describing was never intended to happen. That is what happened at the Fall of man. Degeneration and death. Man relinquished his God given dominion/conservatorship of the Earth, over to the ruler of this world, Satan. Not a nice guy. He is the Destroyer.
I know this sounds like a ferry tale, but it is true.
Just ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you, and He will.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Christianity fails. Why? Because it is a patriarchal dogma that links Judaic rigidity and introspective guilt with Hellenistic irrationality into a concoction of prejudice and fear. It assumes the failure of human reason as well as the failure of an intrinsic human morality. It requires us to believe in a personal god that finds so much joy in our redemption he commits us all to sin at our births. One could argue, as Gibbon did, that the Roman Empire was destroyed and the “dark ages” ushered in, by the advent of Christianity.
The idea that a Pentecostal believer is speaking in translatable ancient tongues and not psychotic gibberish is just plain ludicrous. Christianity and its political vehicles have created havoc in Western culture for centuries. And, as Hume said so insightfully centuries ago, there is no such thing as a miracle, because miracles by their very nature are impossible.
The word, as articulated in the New Testament, is God, but the word is an invention of humanity. The closest thing to a personal god in this universe is humanity. It’s a shame we can’t act more like gods. Kindness and good will inhere naturally in the human heart; they don’t need 2000-year-old sheepherder or camel driver mythologies to make them real or active.
But all religion tied to specific dogma and the faith of belief fails as well.
Consider the hundreds of world mythologies; doubtless they can’t all be true or real. Certainly, the doctrines of Islam can’t be true if the doctrines of Christianity are. It is a given that some mythologies are false and yet each is served by faith. Faith can hardly be the measure of truth because it so often serves what is false. Without faith all mythological systems fail, and if one mythology is false then it’s possible that all mythologies are false.
To hold up faith and miracles as a manifestation of reality is only a weak attempt to be reconciled to the inevitable. To claim we can’t know god because of his mysterious nature is to beg the question why the mystery? To claim the world is a veil of illusion is to abandon all reason to a procrustean bed of inconsistencies and theological foolishness predicated on personal belief and our pathetic need to be reconciled to an inescapable human fate. No one can know of god with certainty and god will not tell us; his name is ambiguity. And we can only wonder -- what’s the point?
Faith is always delusion by definition.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Paul- "because miracles by there very nature are impossible".
Everything is possible with God, nothing is impossible.
Every breath you take, everyday you are given to live is a miracle. Open your eyes, look at the Universe. The perfect order/laws of the universe. Perfect order from chaos over billions of years?
When I was 8yrs old, I was about to be murdered by a serial killer. According to his son and daughter who were there, he murdered over thirty young boys! He told me he was going to torture me and when they found my body they would think I was hit by a train. I was trapped.
I new little of Jesus, other than He claimed to be God and that He loved children. I called out to Him "Jesus Please Help Me" I was filled with His presence/peace, and walked away. From certain death.
That was a miracle, and the beginning of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He has done many things/miracles in my life and others over the more than 50 years since that initial day.
I am sorry to here you have come to a purely systematic/mental deduction that there is no God.
There is nothing wrong with reason. For as hard as you endeavor to disprove His existence, you will never succeed.
Jesus made a simple claim, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, there is only one Way to the Father, and that is through Me." Why not take Him up on that challenge. You don't know for 100% that God does not exist! You are a brilliant mind I perceive, don't let arrogance rob you of being 100% sure about who Jesus Christ realy is.
Just simply ask Him, and ask Him into your life if He is who He says He is. Only a fool would refuse what He has to offer.
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