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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Jack Bauer interrogates Santa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6yUCbqAGrg
All of creation was waiting for the coming of Jesus; Peter, Andrew, James, John, Luke, Mark, Matthew...
Genesis 1:1, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Exodus 3:14, God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
Paul Addresses the Areopagus
Acts 17:22-34, So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for
**“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
as even some of your own poets have said,
“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’**
Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.
John 1:6-18, There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
John 3:15-16, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 6:35-40, Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but i raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44-47, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 20:31, but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Ephesians 2:1-5, And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
John 6:33, For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
John 10:10, The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
How Precious Is Your Steadfast Love
To the choirmaster. Of David, the servant of the Lord.
Psalm 36:1-12, Transgression speaks to the wicked
deep in his heart;
there is no fear of God
before his eyes.
2 For he flatters himself in his own eyes
that his iniquity cannot be found out and hated.
3 The words of his mouth are trouble and deceit;
he has ceased to act wisely and do good.
4 He plots trouble while on his bed;
he sets himself in a way that is not good;
he does not reject evil.
5 Your steadfast love, O Lord, extends to the heavens,
your faithfulness to the clouds.
6 Your righteousness is like the mountains of God;
your judgments are like the great deep;
man and beast you save, O Lord.
7 How precious is your steadfast love, O God!
The children of mankind take refuge in the shadow of your wings.
8 They feast on the abundance of your house,
and you give them drink from the river of your delights.
9 **For with you is the fountain of life;
in your light do we see light**.
10 Oh, continue your steadfast love to those who know you,
and your righteousness to the upright of heart!
11 Let not the foot of arrogance come upon me,
nor the hand of the wicked drive me away.
12 There the evildoers lie fallen;
they are thrust down, unable to rise.
2 Corinthians 4:6, For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
John 14:6, Jesus said to him, “I am l the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
The Son of Man Must Be Lifted Up
John 12:27-36, “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”
The New Commandment
1 John 2:7-14, Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
I am writing to you, little children,
because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.
I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God abides in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.(fattrad?)
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MH2
climber
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Ed:
I have friends from the past who have left research in the arcana of particles who now work on developing these sorts of "products" working at places like "Bell Lab" to make your lives convenient. Someday soon those voices on the other end of the phone will not be distinguishable between human and machine. And the first instances of the "Touring Test" will have been met in the general society.
If you will, the understanding of the "illusion of reality" will be the demonstration through the creation of that illusion. And just like any magical illusion, there will be no magic involved.
Jan:
Speaking of consciousness and the brain, as we always seem to do, here's an interesting discussion of different parts of the brain as they relate to emotions
It's those emotions which make Ed's claim seem bold. Granted that the emotional shadings in the human voice could be generated by software but could the software match the tone to the context? Or will the telephone voice only soothe? That would be a big improvement but a pretty weak version of Turing.
However, though prediction is risky, it is true that a lot of people working on a lot of small aspects of the problem will probably make steady progress, or even better than linear progress if we accept the Criswell view. And as Ed suggests, the ability to make a system which exhibits a part of the human repertoire is a version of understanding that part of the human.
My original climbing mentor Bill Thompson is a self-described "lapsed physicist" whose career has been in image processing. For example: How could you get software to use stereo pair images and derive the distance to various objects from binocular disparity? People do it 'without thinking' but the computer scientists don't bother trying to mimic the human, which they regard as proof of the existence of a solution, but not the solution itself.
If a system eventually comes along which passes a strong Turing test, a question relevant to this thread might come up: Would people have created a consciousness? A soul?
The Holy Grail isn't just a simulacrum of human thought, but better-than-human thought. You want a machine that you can ask tough questions and get answers better than you/we could get on our own. I'll believe they are there when we get a smart machine and we pose a hard question and it asks, "What's in it for me?"
I'd also be very happy with a machine that could do real-time language translation in audio and I wouldn't be too fussy about emotional shadings.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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A long gone high performance computing company, Thinking Machines, had the informal motto:
"We want to make a machine that would be proud of us"
that was 20 years ago... but they thought that they were close...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking_Machines
I gave a talk there on a type of computer I was involved with building sometime in the mid to late 80s.
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WBraun
climber
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chess playing is now dominated by machines
Stupid
Humans program the machines.
This proves God is The Intelligent Design.
It's very simple to understand. Modern man can't understand simple things anymore.
All modern man understands now is nonsense.
From the one comes the many.
Modern man only sees the many and that's why he's completely bewildered by everything.
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MH2
climber
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Yeah, I wonder where they are at on the guitar-pickin bot?
Eliza did pull people in pretty easily - I saw the public using it at the Toronto science museum in the late 80s - but like an only-pretty woman she could turn your head but not keep it turned.
Eliza had a hilarious conversation with Racter published in Mathematical Games or Recreations of Scientific American.
When parallel processing started coming on I asked Bill Thompson about it and all he said was, "I don't deal in architecture."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Numbers 23:19, **God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it**?
Proverbs 6:16-23, There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.
My son, keep your father's commandment,
and forsake not your mother's teaching.
Bind them on your heart always;
tie them around your neck.
When you walk, they will lead you;
when you lie down, they will watch over you;
and when you awake, they will talk with you.
For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light,
and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life,
‘All that the Lord says, that I must do’?”
I could not go beyond the command of the Lord my God to do less or more.
2 Kings 11:1-2, Now when Athaliah the mother of Ahaziah saw that her son was dead, she arose and destroyed all the royal family. But Jehosheba, the daughter of King Joram, sister of Ahaziah, took Joash the son of Ahaziah and stole him away from among the king's sons who were being put to death, and she put him and his nurse in a bedroom. Thus they hid him from Athaliah, so that he was not put to death.
Matthew 2:16, Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men.
Matthew 4:1-11, Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”
But he answered, “It is written,“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”
Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple 6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,“‘He will command his angels concerning you,’and“‘On their hands they will bear you up lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written,“‘You shall worship the Lord your Godand him only shall you serve.’”
Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.
Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection
Matthew 16:21-23, From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.” But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Come on now. Is there not a single believer capable of having an open mind and saying "Even though I believe it is true, it is still possible that every book about God, Jesus, Zeus, Apollo, Auraka, Lao-Tien-Yeh, Februus, Shiva, (boy, there are thousands of different gods), as well as all of the word-of-mouth passed down for centuries, could be all made up by humans." After all, everyone will agree that there is a lot of evil and ignorance in the world. Why not accept that some of that evil and ignorance could have resulted in people making up stuff about God for various human reasons and now you are all stuck with it.
After all, everyone here will admit to human frailty. At least up to the point of their faith. At that point, there is strangely no amount of humbleness and everyone seems to believe that they are right and that all other religions, and the atheists, are all wrong.
I am an atheist but I will easily admit that since I am human and have limited knowledge of the universe and have a lot of instincts and other pre-programming running in my head, that I could easily be wrong.
So step up to the plate, believers, and admit that you could be wrong because you are human and have ego and greed and all that other stuff that makes you a really bad resource for reliable information.
or don't. It just makes you look completely unenlightened to wallow in your own arrogance.
:)
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"After all, everyone here will admit to human frailty"
Exactly! That's why I believe!
Man is the least needed thing in existence, we didn't do anything to help it along,
In fact if we weren't here it would be a cool place?
We come and are gone, and are no more?
It's good to be an Atheist!
Psalm 4:4-8, ponder in your own hearts on your beds, and be silent. Selah
Offer right sacrifices,
and put your trust in the Lord.
There are many who say, “Who will show us some good?
Lift up the light of your face upon us, O Lord!”
You have put more joy in my heart
than they have when their grain and wine abound.
In peace I will both lie down and sleep;
for you alone, O Lord, make me dwell in safety.
Trust in the Lord with All Your Heart
Proverbs 3, My son, do not forget my teaching,
but let your heart keep my commandments,
2 for length of days and years of life
and peace they will add to you.
3 Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you;
bind them around your neck;
write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 So you will find favor and good success
in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
7 Be not wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.
8 It will be healing to your flesh
and refreshment to your bones.
9 Honor the Lord with your wealth
and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
10 then your barns will be filled with plenty,
and your vats will be bursting with wine.
11 My son, do not despise the Lord's discipline
or be weary of his reproof,
12 for the Lord reproves him whom he loves,
as a father the son in whom he delights.
13 Blessed is the one who finds wisdom,
and the one who gets understanding,
14 for the gain from her is better than gain from silver
and her profit better than gold.
15 She is more precious than jewels,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
16 Long life is in her right hand;
in her left hand are riches and honor.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness,
and all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her;
those who hold her fast are called blessed.
19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth;
by understanding he established the heavens;
20 by his knowledge the deeps broke open,
and the clouds drop down the dew.
21 My son, do not lose sight of these—
keep sound wisdom and discretion,
22 and they will be life for your soul
and adornment for your neck.
23 Then you will walk on your way securely,
and your foot will not stumble.
24 If you lie down, you will not be afraid;
when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet.
25 Do not be afraid of sudden terror
or of the ruin of the wicked, when it comes,
26 for the Lord will be your confidence
and will keep your foot from being caught.
27 Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due,
when it is in your power to do it.
28 Do not say to your neighbor, “Go, and come again,
tomorrow I will give it”—when you have it with you.
29 Do not plan evil against your neighbor,
who dwells trustingly beside you.
30 Do not contend with a man for no reason,
when he has done you no harm.
31 Do not envy a man of violence
and do not choose any of his ways,
32 for the devious person is an abomination to the Lord,
but the upright are in his confidence.
33 The Lord's curse is on the house of the wicked,
but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous.
34 Toward the scorners he is scornful,
but to the humble he gives favor.
35 The wise will inherit honor,
but fools get disgrace.
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MH2
climber
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So step up to the plate, believers,
"Throughout the four years I lived in Cwm Pennant, the sense grew on me that here was a landscape where every field-corner was thick with ghosts, where generations of men had played some cosmic chess-game, arranged and re-arranged stones into the temporary shapes of two or three hundred years, borrowed from here to build there, let frost and wind collapse and the grass wipe clean, and though the summit ridges could preside, curved and swooping, effortlessly elegant, each stone piece their own bequest, they too were subject to the rules of the game, timed by the pulse of the sun."
Jim Perrin (writing a review of an animation short?)
"The white cliffs glared around, the sea lapped in gently towards us, we shrugged our shoulders and went off to climb."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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squid et. el.- "come on believers"
Take a close look at your self, your life! That hole in your heart(lack of contentment, satisfaction, loneliness, despair, bitterness etc, etc)emptiness. U can't fill! It will always be there! You've tried drugs, sex, money, sports, whatever...it won't go away! Nothing can fill that void in your soul. That is the void were God's Spirit wants to unite with your spirit, and will bring an indescribable piece to your soul.
When I was 8yrs old, I called on Jesus to help me, I had heard nothing of this peace, or the Prince of Peace. But that is what filled me that afternoon, His peace. And I walked away from certain death.
He promises to answer, to reveal Himself to whomever calls on His name! Until you sincerely ask Him to do so, you will be ignorant of His love for you.
I agree with all the human frailty's you described above rectosquid, except the part about "you could be wrong" about the relationship I have with Jesus Christ!!
It is the most personal relationship you can have with anyone here on earth(or for eternity).
If someone asked you to deny the existence of your father, mother wife, son or whomever...would you? It is that personal, and more so...what Jesus Christ offers! To know Him, have a personal relationship with Him.
Some day you will know the truth. But for now, you are wallowing in your own ignorance/arrogance alone bitter and hateful etc. In spiritual darkness(speak of being unenlightened)!! Sad but true.
EDIT: "alone, bitter and hateful" strife, malice, deceit...not spcecifally you rectorsquid(for I don't really know you), but common to mankind!!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nice try, anyway.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Rectorsquid- "that I could be easily wrong"
I do respect you for admitting this!
But I can't lie, even if it meant loosing friendships or loved ones. Or castigation and even certain death.
Peter denied Him three times initially. But when he met the resurrected Christ and was filled with His presence(Spirit)at Pentecost, Peter went on and was martyred. As were eleven of the twelve Apostles, all of whom ran away in fear during His Crucifixion.
I am talking about a personal relationship, nothing can change it.
Take the next step and admit to God that if He is who He says He is, you want to know Him. If Jesus Christ realy is God, and died for you, you will give your life to Him. He promises eternal life. It is that simple. Tell Him you don't know if He(Jesus)realy is God. But if He is, come into my heart(life).
Think about it. What do you have to loose? You have Heaven and Eternity to gain.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Take a close look at your self, your life! That hole in your heart(lack of contentment, satisfaction, loneliness, despair, bitterness etc, etc)emptiness. U can't fill! It will always be there! You've tried drugs, sex, money, sports, whatever...it won't go away! Nothing can fill that void in your soul. That is the void were God's Spirit wants to unite with your spirit, and will bring an indescribable piece to your soul.
I basically find this sort of projection both sad and insulting. It's a poor repackaging of all the 'original sin' bullshit - that, gosh darn it - you're just not good enough. It makes me almost want to cry for the person that believes it; that their life is so sad that they think everyone's life is as sad as theirs. That everyone has a 'hole' or void that needs feeling because they do. Hard to imagine a more sad projection than this.
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