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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 26, 2014 - 08:13am PT
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you don't think that understanding mathematics is a skill that can be relevant to "todays job market."
i can't think of a job that it's not relevant.
Actually if my daughter Olive became a Mathematician, it would be my dream come true!
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 26, 2014 - 08:21am PT
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Any job you can think of will no longer exist when she's an adult, so it doesn't really matter.
Healthy habits, social intelligence, and critical/analytical thinking are about as specific as you can get with regards helping the next gen along on the 'ladder of success'.
You don't live in their world. You never will.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 26, 2014 - 09:49am PT
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Jgill: There's a real satisfaction in going into territory unexplored by other climbers and finding new climbs, even if they turn out to be not as challenging as one might have desired. The exploration itself provides gratification. The same is true of math.
I have my doubts.
People don't like endless ambiguity or uncertainty (absolute groundlessness). Everyone wants final answers, definitions, concreteness, clarity, things that really exist, and accomplishments. Yet these are the very things gives rise to suffering. People require the comfort / safety of knowing what's what, predictability, closure, permanent / independent / separate existence, and meaning.
None of that, IMO, is real; or at least none of it can be finally found. All are concepts, a result of vivid imaginations.
Reality is neither concrete nor attained through technique or method. Words simply point to doors into reality. As they say, "it's all good," but the fascination in any structure is a deviation, as no doctrine ultimately ends up being true or correct.
There is no progress. No personal growth is possible. No maturity. No evolution. No meditation. No discipline. Nothing to do. No place to go. No discrimination. No prejudice or bias. No one and no thing to change. No controller. No control. There is simply no need. Everything is upfront and in our faces.
One cannot truly stand aside and admire mind. Pure mind (the dharmakaya) is like space. It is a unified matrix of openness, spontaneity, and absence (empty). The here and now is a freeform display. One can only jump into it.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 26, 2014 - 09:58am PT
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"Everyone wants final answers, definitions, concreteness, clarity, things that really exist, and accomplishments. Yet these are the very things gives rise to suffering. People require the comfort / safety of knowing what's what, predictability, closure, permanent / independent / separate existence, and meaning."
Have you traveled solo in unfamiliar wilderness for extended periods of time? I have, and I don't recognize any of this. I don't presume to speak for even one other person, never mind 'everyone', either.
Seems like a whole lot of attachment to an unfounded opinion to me. Hardly Beginner's Mind stuff, here.
What I have experienced on extended solo back country journeys and ocean voyages is an absorption of self into the environment. Not a disappearance, mind you - the animals certainly know I'm there - but I become just another creature rather than a disturbance.
This absorption was particularly pronounced on long open ocean crossings in my sailing kayak. Absorption opens one up to realize and blend into the rythms of a wholly dynamic environment - wind, waves, currents, clouds, stars, creatures. It keeps one's sense of beauty and wonder alive in the face of overwhelming, raw power. Otherwise the fear of such an undertaking can be crippling, particularly when conditions become rough. It conserves one's energy for longer voyages and emergencies such as a mechanical failure, an approaching supertanker, navigating at night through coral reef in a squall, sailing over a submerged volcano, or passage in and out of the surf line. In an emergency, it can provide a platform for the level of total focus one needs to survive.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 26, 2014 - 10:42am PT
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. attachment to “I” would appear in it’s various forms of fear, envy , anger, craving etc (PSP)
JGill said” Once again "I" (or attachment to "I") is described as a demonic possession. What of confidence, graciousness, joy, and fulfillment: the blessings of "I" ?
I see in these Zen expressions the underpinnings of bushido and loyalty unto death of the samurai. It's so easy to die for one's lord if "I" consciousness is absent.
So sad . . .
No demons are necessary.
If you watch your internal dialog you get to see that whenever you move into a fearful or envious (and yes) confident states of mind they are almost always accompanied by “I” as in I am angry or I am confident etc. The stronger you believe it is yours and that you are correct the more attached you are and the less ability you have to step back from it and look at it from another point of view.
I think the misunderstanding is zen and other (Buddhist teachings ie theravadan ) does not prescribe to removing fear envy joy graciousness etc etc but just to observe and experience them as they are and to recognize their relationship to “I”.
Sitting meditation is an excellent venue for being able to do this when you sit down for 20 minutes all that stuff comes up sooner or later and it is an opportunity to observe it for what it is . The way prescribed for observing it is to not push it away and don’t crave it (just observe).
The challenge is we are very conditioned to push stuff away that makes us uncomfortable and to crave (grab)things that make us happy. That is why it takes a lot of practice.
The direction for all of this is to perceive your true nature and help all beings. My take on that is if your perceive your true self (mind unattached from “I”) then by natural process you help all beings because you stop being self oriented.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 26, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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First of all, I would hardly claim that this group or climbers in general represent the average person that MikeL was probably speaking of. I do believe climbers are one of the last evolutionary bastions of those who like to find new routes and blank spaces on the map. Most of the human race was bought out/transformed by agriculture into something else. Climbers are more akin in spirit to the hunter gatherers or nomadic pastoralists of the past.
Healthy habits, social intelligence, and critical/analytical thinking are about as specific as you can get with regards helping the next gen along on the 'ladder of success'.
This is of course why most school districts are still serving junk food in the cafeteria and judging students and teachers by standardized tests?
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MH2
climber
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Aug 26, 2014 - 11:26am PT
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when you sit down for 20 minutes all that stuff comes up sooner or later and it is an opportunity to observe it for what it is . The way prescribed for observing it is to not push it away and don’t crave it (just observe). (PSP also PP)
As another meditator, do you recognize what JL means by 'alert open focus?' Is it what you describe above?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 26, 2014 - 11:32am PT
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""Healthy habits, social intelligence, and critical/analytical thinking are about as specific as you can get with regards helping the next gen along on the 'ladder of success'."
This is of course why most school districts are still serving junk food in the cafeteria and judging students and teachers by standardized tests? "
This attempted juxtaposition makes no sense to me whatsoever. Unless it was an attempt at tongue-in-cheek agreement.
Individuals vary within social groups with regards to attributes like boldness, risk taking, and curiosity. Sure.
I tend to shy away from proclamations about 'the masses' however. Individuals are complicated and interesting if you're open minded enough to grok such unexplored territory. That others' adventures don't look like mine doesn't trouble me much.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 26, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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As for Zen and and Theravada forms of Buddhism, I think the misunderstandings about losing the self arise from the differences between Buddhist apophatic definitions and western cathephatic definitions.
Western thought loves to define things in positive and definite statements. Hence God is an eternal, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent omnipotent spirit etc.
Buddhism defines things in terms of the abscence of ordinary traits. Hence Ultimate reality is seen as "unborn, uncreated, undying, unchanging". Other terms are emptiness or nothingness.
Likewise with personal characteristics that are sought after. To be egoless is an extension of the eastern ideals of personal calm, dignity, poise, and equanimity.
Westerners are more active (being a cultural ecologist I think it has a lot to do with climate). They talk about selflessness, forgiveness, generosity, charity and "doing good".
Getting rid of ego eastern style means getting rid of self centeredness and selfishness in western terms. That's all.
The Dalai Lama is beloved all over the world because of his wisdom, his humor, and his selfless service to both the Tibetan nation and spiritual seekers all over the world. The samurais were a perversion of Buddhism. They got the meditation part down for the ends jgill suggests, but they never partook of Buddhist ethics.
Buddhism says it takes both meditative wisdom and compassion to become enlightened.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 26, 2014 - 11:43am PT
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Individuals are complicated and interesting if you're open minded enough to grok such unexplored territory.
Agreed even in the midst of the most conforming societies. However, your faith in individuals and individualism is typically American and not shared by most of the world which enjoys much more of a sense of family and community than we do.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Aug 26, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
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Getting rid of ego eastern style means getting rid of self centeredness and selfishness in western terms. That's all (Jan)
Finally, a message of great clarity.
Jgill: There's a real satisfaction in going into territory unexplored by other climbers and finding new climbs, even if they turn out to be not as challenging as one might have desired. The exploration itself provides gratification. The same is true of math.
I have my doubts
People don't like endless ambiguity or uncertainty (absolute groundlessness). Everyone wants final answers, definitions, concreteness, clarity, things that really exist, and accomplishments. Yet these are the very things gives rise to suffering. People require the comfort , safety of knowing what's what, predictability, closure, permanent , independent , separate existence, and meaning. (MikeL)
Surprisingly, I will agree somewhat. We've both made blanket statements that cover a bit too much territory. I have known a number of PhD mathematicians who have had no interest in research after their theses. Most have been very smart and certainly capable of doing more, but the exploration gene just wasn't there. And there are certainly talented climbers who simply repeat routes that are popular, showing little interest in exploration.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 26, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
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My taking individuals as they come has zero to do with the status of the American family, the American worship of 'individualism' - and everything to do with simply having an open mind.
My approach towards others is the same regardless of what country I'm in or where the person hails from.
Do you speak for 'most of the world' now? Is 'most of the world' living here and experiencing American family life for themselves? Is a substantial population of 'most of the world' still trying to emigrate to America?
That Americans lack a sense of family smacks of an outsider's view with a narrow focus and a strong bias filter. Hey, we all do this, regardlesss of nationality, with regards to places we're not that familiar with.
It's not the same as less developed countries, sure, but after traveling extensively to 35 countries, many of them less developed, I'd hardly hold most of them as models for how family members should treat each other. Do I need to provide examples?
Most of the American families I know personally are incredible and vibrant - a HUGE step up from families I knew growing up. They are not without their problems, of course, but the level of dysfunction is so much lower than in the past.
On the flip side, American life can be alienating, for a variety of reasons. I haven't observed it being any more lonely or alienating than life in less developed countries, however.
All anecdotal, but family life in America appears to be alive and well to me. Thanks for asking.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
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Getting rid of ego eastern style means getting rid of self centeredness and selfishness in western terms. That's all
So does this amount to a criticism of many on this thread who have pointedly suggested that this "ego-ridding" is founded in an actual ontologically-based total dissolution of a sense of ego in the psyche?
Your characterization in the above seems to confine this ego diminution to a sort of social modification --- a social regulatory function perhaps rooted in a long-standing ethical need in Asian societies to put a firm check on rampant draconian individualism.( This ethical need might in turn derive from deep and reoccurring ecological and economic considerations)
Could the rise of Buddhism in India and China---at least partly---have historically amounted to a sort of social levee , or dam, against the sometimes unchecked rise of regional warlordism?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 26, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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I suppose one could measure the health of the American family by observing the condition of American teens. In working with teens extensively in two different capacities, I'm extremely impressed so far. Huge improvement from my day IMO.
I'd say we're doing just fine, growing wealth disparity problem not withstanding.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 26, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
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MH said”As another meditator, do you recognize what JL means by 'alert open focus?' Is it what you describe above?”
Given all the semantical misunderstandings and that I am fairly dyslexic I am not sure I do, but I think JL is talking about the same thing.
One of the most difficult transitions is most people come in looking for a self improvement solution and to transition to a big question What am I? style with no attainment with nothing to attain is a big move.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 26, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
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Ward, I think it's both, existing on a continuum from what is socially beneficial to the deepest layers of the individual mind. And yes, I think economics and the underlying ecology played a huge role, the group effort and discipline of rice growing being thought by most specialists to be the reason. Buddhism's social origins in India are commonly thought to be a reaction of the growing mercantile classes against the tradition and priest bound agricultural society. In China, it may have been a reaction against war lordism, but more commonly against the upper class authoritarian biases of Confucianism and the lack of an explanation for a life after death in both Confucianism and Taoism.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 26, 2014 - 06:23pm PT
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And Tvash, I'm glad that you are so happy with the American families and teenagers you know. Optimism is also an American trait. I guarantee you that if you were raised in Japan, hardly a Third World Society, you would not be touting the glories of individualism.
As for America, I go by statistics rather than personal experience, and these are not quite as wonderful as your experience. Rates of divorce, single parenthood, children from broken homes living in poverty, drugs, incarceration, and violence in America do not compare favorably with other societies. Rich or poor, developed or not, part of family life is having an evening meal together, yet this is no longer the statistical norm in America. You may see that as individualism but the rest of the world regards it as social impoverishment.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
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I generally agree with Jan in the above post. But I would not attribute the diminution of family and community life seen in recent times in the West to individualism.
America very firmly subsisted on rugged individualism for most of its history---- and yet the family and community played a much greater role in daily life than it does today. Even in Europe, which lacked an individualistic pioneering ethos, we have seen nearly the same outcome as regards the family, and other similar demographic trends.
Many of the social changes we are now witnessing , negative or positive , are a direct result of technological change, rather than commonly shared ideologically-based creeds----which themselves are likewise molded ,modified, and perhaps even eventually eliminated by historical, demographic, and technological factors.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition
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