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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Ed wrote, regarding Jan's mystical story of precognition
to respond to Jan's post above... I must ask: why do you need any explanation about why these things happen? Why not just accept them as is and seek no deeper cause?
Gosh Ed, something happens that appears to contradict the material view of the world and consciousness that you have been offering and your solution is to suggest we don't look for an explanation? Just ignore events that go against our worldview and keep whistling in the dark? That's hardly a scientific approach. Think about what you are saying here
Peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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Biblical Scholar Sets Date for THE Rapture!
Harold Camping lets out a hearty chuckle when he considers the people who believe the world will end in 2012.
"That date has not one stitch of biblical authority," Camping says from the Oakland office where he runs Family Radio, an evangelical station that reaches listeners around the world. "It's like a fairy tale."
The real date for the end of times, he says, is in 2011.
The Mayans and the recent Hollywood movie "2012" have put the apocalypse in the popular mind this year, but Camping has been at this business for a long time. And while Armageddon is pop science or big-screen entertainment to many, Camping has followers from the Bay Area to China.
Camping, 88, has scrutinized the Bible for almost 70 years and says he has developed a mathematical system to interpret prophecies hidden within the Good Book. One night a few years ago, Camping, a civil engineer by trade, crunched the numbers and was stunned at what he'd found: The world will end May 21, 2011.
This is not the first time Camping has made a bold prediction about Judgment Day.
On Sept. 6, 1994, dozens of Camping's believers gathered inside Alameda's Veterans Memorial Building to await the return of Christ, an event Camping had promised for two years. Followers dressed children in their Sunday best and held Bibles open-faced toward heaven.
But the world did not end. Camping allowed that he may have made a mathematical error. He spent the next decade running new calculations, as well as overseeing a media company that has grown significantly in size and reach.
"We are now translated into 48 languages and have been transmitting into China on an AM station without getting jammed once," Camping said. "How can that happen without God's mercy?"
His office is flanked by satellite dishes in the parking lot that transmit his talk show, "Open Forum." In the Bay Area, he's heard on 610 AM, KEAR. Camping says his company owns about 55 stations in the United States alone, and that his message arrives on every continent.
'I'm looking forward to it'
Employees at the Oakland office run printing presses that publish Camping's pamphlets and books, and some wear T-shirts that read, "May 21, 2011." They're happy to talk about the day they believe their souls will be retrieved by Christ.
"I'm looking forward to it," said Ted Solomon, 60, who started listening to Camping in 1997. He's worked at Family Radio since 2004, making sure international translators properly dictate Camping's sermons.
"This world may have had an attraction to me at one time," Solomon said. "But now it's definitely lost its appeal."
Camping is a frail-looking man, and his voice is low and deep, but it can rise to dramatic peaks with a preacher's flair.
As a young man, he owned an East Bay construction business but longed to work as a servant of God. So he hit the books.
"Because I was an engineer, I was very interested in the numbers," he said. "I'd wonder, 'Why did God put this number in, or that number in?' It was not a question of unbelief, it was a question of, 'There must be a reason for it.' "
Code-breaking phenomenon
Camping is not the only man to see truths in the Bible hidden in the numbers. In the late 1990s, a code-breaking phenomenon took off, led by "The Bible Code," written by former Washington Post journalist Michael Drosnin.
Drosnin developed a technique that revealed prophecies within the Bible's text. A handful of biblical scholars have supported Drosnin's theory, lending it an air of legitimacy, and just as many scholars have decried it as farce.
One of Drosnin's more well-known findings is that a meteor will strike Earth in 2012, the same year some people believe the Mayan calendar marks the end of times, and the same year the "2012" action movie surmised the Earth's crust will destabilize and kill most humans.
Meaning in numbers
By Camping's understanding, the Bible was dictated by God and every word and number carries a spiritual significance. He noticed that particular numbers appeared in the Bible at the same time particular themes are discussed.
The number 5, Camping concluded, equals "atonement." Ten is "completeness." Seventeen means "heaven." Camping patiently explained how he reached his conclusion for May 21, 2011.
"Christ hung on the cross April 1, 33 A.D.," he began. "Now go to April 1 of 2011 A.D., and that's 1,978 years."
Camping then multiplied 1,978 by 365.2422 days - the number of days in each solar year, not to be confused with a calendar year.
Next, Camping noted that April 1 to May 21 encompasses 51 days. Add 51 to the sum of previous multiplication total, and it equals 722,500.
Camping realized that (5 x 10 x 17) x (5 x 10 x 17) = 722,500.
Or put into words: (Atonement x Completeness x Heaven), squared.
"Five times 10 times 17 is telling you a story," Camping said. "It's the story from the time Christ made payment for your sins until you're completely saved.
"I tell ya, I just about fell off my chair when I realized that," Camping said.
James Kreuger, author of "Secrets of the Apocalypse - Revealed," has been studying the end of times for 40 years and is familiar with Camping's work. While Kreuger agrees that the rapture is indeed coming, he disputes Camping's method.
"For all his learning, Camping makes a classic beginner's mistake when he sets a date for Christ's return," Kreuger wrote in an e-mail. "Jesus himself said in Matthew 24:36, 'Of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my father only.' "
'It is going to happen'
Camping's believers will have none of it.
Rick LaCasse, who attended the September 1994 service in Alameda, said that 15 years later, his faith in Camping has only strengthened.
"Evidently, he was wrong," LaCasse allowed, "but this time it is going to happen. There was some doubt last time, but we didn't have any proofs. This time we do."
Would his opinion of Camping change if May 21, 2011, ended without incident?
"I can't even think like that," LaCasse said. "Everything is too positive right now. There's too little time to think like that."
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/01/BA8V1AV589.DTL&feed=rss.news#ixzz0baWoA6TL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Harold Camping will never learn! (but there's always hope)
They don't mention that he's already written a book predicting the end of the world for 1994. You'd think a diet of crow would get old!
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Signs of the Close of the Age
Matthew 24:3-51, As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation
15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree
32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
No One Knows That Day and Hour
36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The Parable of the Ten Virgins
Matthew 25:1-46, , “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
The Parable of the Talents
14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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In the above post, it is quoted from scripture
34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
What were those things he predicted and did they happen within a generation?
Peace
Karl
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"What were those things he predicted and did they happen within a generation?"
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
Matthew 24:1-2 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
The Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in that generation!
Matt. 24:2 Jesus' prophecy of the destruction of the temple was fulfilled in a.d. 70 when the Roman army under Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Not . . . one stone upon another may be intended as a metaphor for total destruction, or it may be understood as something that was literally fulfilled in the destruction of the temple building itself (but not the entire Temple Mount, some of which remains to this day).
Matt. 24:3 The disciples ask two questions: (1) when will these things be, and (2) what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age? Jesus' answer to these questions apparently intertwines prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and his second coming. The near event (the destruction of Jerusalem) serves as a symbol and foreshadowing of the more distant event (the second coming). The discourse can be divided into three parts: (1) a generally chronological description of events preceding Christ's return (vv. 4–31); (2) lessons on watching, waiting, and being prepared for Christ's return (24:36–25:30); and (3) a warning of judgment and a promise of reward at the time of Christ's return (25:31–46). Matthew's version of this question, with explicit mention of the second coming, is more developed and detailed than the question in the parallel passages in Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Gobee-
Beautiful photographs in that slide show and the message was good too - Very positive.
One of my interests has always been conversion stories. Visiting Christian congregations in Asia has an entirely different feel than in the U.S., precisely because they aren't burdened down by all the past history that we are. It is all new and fresh to them.
It is especially moving to visit churches in Nepal, where many of the Asian converts have spent time in jail for their beliefs. Before the restoration of democracy there, it was against the law to change the religion you were born into, as the king was claiming to be the incarnation of the god Vishnu and a large part of his political power came from Hindus maintaining that belief.
Likewise, it is very moving to visit Hindu and Buddhist retreat centers in America where highly educated people who have been turned off by western religions also find what they are looking for. They also abound in the energy of newly discovered meaning to life and answers that make sense. People who wouldn't be caught dead in a church or synagogue are happily fasting, doing prostrations, and meditating in an ashram, no problem. Indeed, in the Father's house there are many mansions
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Thanks Jan! That was by the church of Singapore!
Jerry Reed And Chet Atkins Jerrys Breakdown,
SWEET LOCKER!
Paul Gilbert, YAH!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Speaking of consciousness and the brain, as we always seem to do, here's an interesting discussion of different parts of the brain as they relate to emotions and will power and the incredible revival of Beck Weathers from his coma on Everest in 1996.
No new facts are given but the illustrations from brain scans are interesting, or at least I thought so. The narrator is Ken Kamler, one of the doctors on the expedition. The actual illustrations are in the middle of the talk.
The next time I need some will power, I am going to visualize stimulating my midbrain where it's supposed to originate and see if that helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgqc2m7aBzs&NR=1
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MH2
climber
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Well, we may not get anywhere but I still like running in circles. Anyway, we are all just the skin of paint at the top of Gobee's tower of posts.
It was great to hear more from Ed:
That the very "authority" of our mental state fails in very simple ways, for instance, drinking 4 or 5 Old E's and recalling the consequences... "just what was I thinking when I did that?!" Or a bit too much of the bud, or any manner of ways we have of inhibiting, heightening or otherwise altering our consciousness. These affects are directly attributable to changing the chemical environment of the brain.
One doesn't have to be trite, think of anesthetic , how does it happen that by the application of a small amount of chemical to the body, our perception of pain is so radically altered that it allows us to remain placid as our bodies are hacked into? The chemistry of "thought" is profound.
Excellent points, but is it fair to doubt your mental abilities because of what can go wrong with them? What about when you're sober? Are you saying we can't trust our jugement then, either?
The discovery and characterization of the sodium channel did a lot to explain the nerve impulse and action of local anesthetics. In contrast,
general anesthesia has long been an outstanding mystery: how could a molecule as simple as nitrous oxide have such big effects on mental activity? Even nitrogen at high partial pressures can cause narcosis in divers. There is now good evidence that the action takes place through effects on receptors for GABAergic neurotransmitters:
http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/gabaasubtypes.html
If you want weirder ideas, though, you don't have to look far:
http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/anaesthetics.htm
Probably best not to do your pondering of consciousness under the influence, unless you like the smell of fried onions.
The Experimental Epistemologist steps in deeper:
FRANK: But most people when asked what they believe simply tell you. Why do you, to find out your beliefs, go through the fantastically roundabout process of directing a brain-reading machine to your own brain and then finding out what you believe on the basis of the machine's readings?
EPISTEMOLOGIST: What other scientific, objective way is there of finding out what I believe?
It has always puzzled me that so many religious people have taken it for granted that God favors those who believe in him. Isn't it possible that the actual God is a scientific God who has little patience with beliefs founded on faith rather than evidence?
Raymond Smullyan
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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heyt here jan, say.... i've been doing all kinds of stuff all night and finally came back here before i sign off...
oh my:
as to that car accident... say, also, the poor man would have felt sorrow beyond words if his accident had hurt so many more people... and he even had tried to do the right thing, too, by going for medical help before all this happened... and the wife and child... oh my...
in all this, as you said, aside from the neck pain---life was left to be there for so many.... oh my....
there was something mighty powerful going on that day, for sure...
say, jan, and i am so very glad you are still here... too...
who knows, perhaps the ol' neck pain will surprise you one day
and be gone... but---you will still have this fantastic story of life, left to share... :)
oh my... and wow... :)
well, happy good morning, or good night, to all...
:)
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Just checking in to see how Ed (and some others) is keeping up the good fight. Jeez, that last link is a doozy. I've never seen so much idiotic non-sense in one place. This is the stuff of great comedy.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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MH2 asks:
Excellent points, but is it fair to doubt your mental abilities because of what can go wrong with them? What about when you're sober? Are you saying we can't trust our jugement then, either?
I think that "trusting our judgement" obviously works in a statistical sense, an evolutionary sense. We all kid around about "Darwin award winners," those who exhibit such bad judgement that they should be removed from the "gene pool." So the natural end of poor judgement is to run a long term evolutionary experiment on the particular behavior. Our current consciousness is the end result of such an "experiment."
However, it is obvious that many of the situations our current judgement is called upon to judge are quite new, and very much not a part of the pressures of survival and procreation that got us here. So our adaptation to these new situations are using "old" capabilities in "new" ways. Judgement may not be the best even for sober minds.
My point about brain chemistry is that we are always under the influence, it's part of the way the brain works. When flushed with particular hormones judgement can be "clouded" and we might act in ways that are uncharacteristic of our "rational thought." Anyone not experience that? I don't think so.
"Trust, but verify" would be a good way to proceed, and also learn from that. The scientific method has had to confront the subjective nature of human witness and is one methodology which allows a verification. I think your argument above about experimental epistemology points out the circular nature, which I believe is an apt point to make about all epistemology. However empiricism works because it creates a set of quantitative measures which are related by mathematical logic contained in theory.
It is also possible that epistemology is asking the wrong questions.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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My wireless is out!
Late...
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Actually, I am the missing link. And for those of you who do not believe me, just check out my IQ, sub-zero. Oh gosh, that means I could be a creationist.
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MH2
climber
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It is also possible that epistemology is asking the wrong questions.
I wouldn't know. I find philosophy fun for the imagination, sort of like sf.
The parable of the empirical epistemologist is a way to look at what can be trusted and beyond that what should be trusted.
The epistemologist nears the crux:
EPISTEMOLOGIST: This is the most fantastic thing I have ever come across! According to the machine, the best thing I can do is to cease to trust the machine!
FRANK: What do you intend to do about it?
EPISTEMOLOGIST: Good question, let me consult the machine. According to the machine, my present intentions are in complete conflict. And I can see why! I am caught in a terrible paradox! If the machine is trustworthy, then I had better accept its suggestion to distrust it. But if I distrust it, then I must also distrust its suggestion to distrust it, so I am really in a total quandary.
Personally, I think that everyone should test their beliefs if they get an opportunity to do so. Science works at trying to create those opportunities. You must have other knowledgable people around to correct your bias, though. Or at least to make coffee for you and remind you when your wife's birthday is.
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