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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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It's funny that if the route went in and the only info about the FA was a topo nary a word would be said about it. But since it was reported that it was rap bolted it became much more controversial and interesting. The means are more interesting to discuss than the end.
I think I agree with Karl, the quality of the route is more important than the style of the FA (edit: within reason of course, or at least the quality of the resulting route needs to be addressed when deciding on the style of the FA). Like I said if they didn't report on the style of the FA we wouldn't know any difference. But if there were an extra 100 holes needed for a ground up FA that to me is a more tangible negative consequence.
And for this establishing a precedent leading to a slippery slope of sport climb big walls with bolts every 5 feet, come on that's like saying pot leads to meth. Sure the climb possibly opened some eyes that rap bolting big walls is possible, but everyone is going to make their own decisions, and hopefully climb in the best style they feel is appropriate for their FA. It is good we are taking a hard look at what happened (and the thoughts behind the route were discussed in the article) because hopefully that will influence future climbers to look hard when putting up FAs too.
People forget that style is a spectrum. At one end is the best style: no bolts, ground up, no shoes, no chalk, free solo. At the other end is: bolt ladder, rap bolt, hand dogging. Depending on the difficulty hopefully the FA decides how far to deviate from the best style to put up the climb, often with an eye on the final product that will probably be there for hundreds or more years vs. that one time experience of the FA. Probably everyone here who has done an FA has deviated from the best possible style in the manner they feel is approriate, but some think that the level they are willing to compromise to should be the same for everyone. Basically people living in glass houses need to be careful when they throw stones.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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"At one end is the best style: no bolts, ground up, no shoes, no chalk, free solo."
Uh, I just want to interrupt for a minute to suggest changing that to 'purist' style rather than best.
Not semantics either IMHO. 'Best' could be argumentative.
"Purist" I think isn't...
carry on...
DD
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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The film crew never filmed them setting the route, as Doug said.
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couchmaster
climber
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Look, this isn't about rap bolting as much as it is about the acceptable styles and traditions in Yosemite. Many of us have no problem with rap bolted routes at Smith or other places at all, if that is the prevailing ethic. (Some if us do have issues, but thats not what is being discussed here.)
When Alan Watts freed the Stigma after Skinner had all but got his ropes sh#t on for hangdogging it into submission and placing pro on rappel, Watts, despite being a proponent of rap bolting in his little corner of the world at Smith Rocks, did it ground up and even placed a piton on lead. He kept the style of the ditch and it still went at 5.13 something. He rose to the occasion and the challenge, and it was an amazing lead and standard setting route.
It's about being Yosemite and keeping the standards and historical ethics of this place, which are different than Smith, say. Each area has accepted styles and ethics and history.
This is Yosemite....or it was.....
Where is the logical place this change in acceptable style heading too? Maybe I'll go rap bolt the route next to Snake Dike now, since it's all OK now and everything. I can put a bolt every 6 feet, for those who are going to follow, and those not strong enough to free it (mostly likely myself) can then use a stick clip to aid it. Or we can bolt on a few holds for those who need them, nothing wrong with that is there? Is that the direction this is going? To make climbing safe and inclusive for all? Like John Long said: this route is probably a good route, that is not the issue: does it not now open the door to my rap bolted gymfest next to Snake Dike described above? The style is very similar, and a logical outgrowth of this very route. .....I mean, I want to make the cover of climbing magazine too, and that would do it, since it's OK to do it this way via rappel and all now, bringing the rock down to my level, instead of rising to the challenge. I've rap bolted too, and have some plans for more, almost on a Bob D'Antonio level - so don't mean to sound all preachy and holier than thou - but never rap bolted in the valley. Would never consider it. Till now anyway, but now that it's OK and all......maybe a new rap bolted route on El Cap is the ticket?
Since theres no issue with it, you're fine with it, right Doug? I have heard from some folks that if someone thinks it's OK to just put bolts in where they want (other places, not about this route), by that ethic, it's OK for anyone else who disagrees to just pull them out. I haven't been able to out logic that argument yet, and find that although I generally agree with it, in practice I find it quite sad and unproductive as well. I'm not saying this in a mean way, but really do wonder where the logical conclusion of this major shift in attitude can (and invariably will) lead.
This is my last post on this subject, and I really have a fair bit of ambivalence still. Although I like cracks above all, I do clip bolts. I place bolts. I will be rap bolting later this summer. I understand the argument that if you're going to put in a route (which is a new concept in itself "putting in a route", I don't think NA Wall was "Put in" or "Developed" by "Route Developers"), then you have an obligation to those that follow (another new idea). Yet in Yosemite, that wasn't on the agenda or thought list anywhere, it was about rising to the challenge and restricting ourselves so as to maintain the challenge, which is why we (many of us older folks anyway) climb anyway.
Some things to muse over:
Take care all
Bill
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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If this wall was as accessable as el cap, I couldn't imagine what the '80s would have done with it. Given some of the ideologies of San Diego Sport climbers.... 70' pitches of 11b with 15 holes per, weaving in and out of ever concievable inch. Hehe.
Honestly though, the hike isn't that bad. Actually pretty fun, you get a good warmup, kill some beer calories, and you have a fantastic view the whole way up. Not to mention, no sound of traffic, cars, and spectacular view of little yos valley (which is somewhere i've wanted to climb for some time now... now THAT would be a hike!)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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It might be worth noting that Growing Up was not the central focus of Doug's film. Doug's project merged with Sean's idea of putting up a climbable route on SFoHD long after Doug's project was underway.
I add this to clarify the fact that Growing Up was not bred to be a publicity stunt, there was an opportunity there to show an FA, and Doug took it.
[Doug, hope I'm not stepping on your toes here...]
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Maybe I'll go rap bolt the route next to Snake Dike now, since it's all OK and everything. I can put a bolt every 6 feet, and those not strong enough to free it (mostly likely myself) can then use a stick clip to aid it. Or we can bolt on a few holds for those who need them, nothing wrong with that is there?
wow, I guess there really is no bottom to the level of human stupidity.
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ec
climber
ca
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bred not bread...
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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"wow, I guess there really is no bottom to the level of human stupidity"
says the self-identified gym climber. As long as he's bolting every six feet for the good of climbers everywhere...
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moss hog
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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The rats are completing the maze much faster now. The humans are getting better and greener at a few things too. When will the climbers catch up or will they?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nice to know, Domingo, that you've never climbed in a gym (or are you just too proud to admit it?). lol...
"As long as he's bolting every six feet for the good of climbers everywhere..."
Did somebody really endorse this, I missed it.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Couchmaster,
Yes, some of us do have a problem with all the rap bolting at Smith. Once upon a time there was a ground up ethic there too. Rap bolting didn't become the accepted style until Alan rammed it down our throats for a few years. That was kind of the whole point of my earlier post.
I really do wonder if Sean and Doug will now welcome ALL rap bolting on SFHD or will they draw their own lines, based on experience etc. I'm sure they have their own thoughts about what's acceptable.
Fill me in guys, exactly what's "unacceptable"?
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Reasonable question there of Survival's.
I have postcards too, so 5 to whomever bumps this before it hits 500.
"legitimate" bump only... (I know that word's argumentative as well but you get my meaning I think/hope).
Cheers,
DD
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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My initial comments took a look at the absolutes. Apparently people couldn't handle that so let me present something a bit more gray.
I still don't much like the idea of rap bolting but I'm not sure this route is the beginning of the end. For example read the article in the same issue of R&I on the Robbins route redone (Arcturex I believe its called). It was also rappelled for cleaning and placing a few key bolts with permission from the FA party. It sounds like they only bolted in places where pins would have needed to be fixed.
Again doing it ground up and just getting the FFA to me seems like the best style, but I'm starting to cave. Maybe cleaning the route is an ok thing to rappel in for. Maybe adding a bolt on rappel is better than hammering a pin on lead and destroying the usable climbing feature? Then thinking about it, while you are there cleaning and rappeling why not preview and TR some of the crux pitches? It's slippery slope, I'm just not sure there is a big cliff at the bottom waiting to fall off.
Realistically the route those guys cleaned and retro bolted sounds awesome. It would have been sweet if they could have just climbed the route ground up free but maybe it's just not something we should be asking or pushing people to do. Maybe what they did was just put up the first clean ascent on an old climb in a style that we need to see more of?
I mean before they cleaned up Arcturex (correct me on the name pleas) it is a route I could only dream of climbing. I'd probably just have aided the route, but know that it's been cleaned and bolts added to free climable pitches that otherwise needed aid I can actually add it to my list of routes to live up to.
So with that, maybe this whole rap bolting of "Growing Up" isn't so bad and that maybe there isn't any big slope to slide from? DR mentions that had it been more feasible ground up wouled have been preferred. I'm starting to think that maybe this route isn't going to push us in the wrong direction, maybe future FA parties will look at it and push themselves harder to put something up in a cleaner style.
As people have stated, maybe half dome is the next big play ground for hard FA's and because these guys have so much experience in the valley and understanding of the ethics other teams will take that knowledge and use it to better their climbs. I'm starting to think I'd like to go get on this climb. Maybe those top pitches are beautiful and maybe it will give others inspiration in knowing there are climbs left and that they'll want to up the anty yet again by going ground up and free.
Whose to say this isn't going to usher in the next generation of climbers with a mentality and goal to put in ground up protectable routes such as this? Maybe it's not that we need more death routes maybe we need those guys to truly step up and figure out how to put up ground up routes others can repeat.
Ok, now I'm just getting off topic myself. Seriously though. Take a step back and question whether this may not help push the balance and ethics back the other way? I sure as hell would never rap bolt anything on HD after reading this thread and everyones views. Even the people that agree with it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Acturus might get us to 600!
Half Dome, it's sin city!
Snake Dike retro-bolted.
Robbins drilled unnecessary bolt ladders on a route that would go free at only 12a
Teams competed to snag the FA on the Direct and decades later Skinner fixed lines up the thing and camped there for weeks working it (and still got accused of not really freeing it) Caldwell just did the second Free ascent 14a.
Harding got grief for the bathook ladders on the South Face
Hedge mentioned some stuff about Southern Belle
and now "Growing up" and "Acturus"
That first ascensionist set the stage in the late 1800s with his heavy handed drilling.
;-)
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Like John Long said: this route is probably a good route, that is not the issue: does it not now open the door to my rap bolted gymfest next to Snake Dike described above? "
Here's where I really blaspheme and speak only for myself.
I wouldn't give a crap if there were some long, well bolted routes on Half Dome. 10 and easy 11 slab climbs up Half Dome? Bring em on!
Would it be so much worse than EL Cap where there are about 50 routes, beaten into submission ground up but with fixed lines, telescoped scouting, trenched heads and bolt and rivet ladders?
Or the Glacier Point Apron, with it's rusty 1/4 inchers, where I go on Labor Day weekend to have a wall to myself?
That's just speaking for me. I'm all for finding some concensus where possible and then considering these kind of developments on a case by case basis when they come up.
Peace
Karl
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Karl, do you think they need to put up a little ladder aid-fest (from the ground of course) for the COOFC (Confederation of old fart climbers) to talk about doing over beers - endlessly talking about it, of course?
Seems like "Kangaroo Court" would be a nice route name. After all, these guys broke the unpublished rules of the unchartered, unorganized confederation.
Do some of them sound a little shrubbian trying and convicting without evidence of a violation of an unwritten rule. I tell ya, this is a political thread. It is over 400 posts! What more evidence do we need?
Guilty - sentence them to an aid ladder. :-)
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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This is a good thread. I'm impressed overall by keeping the discourse civil. And I'm often impressed by the quality of thought; next to climbing itself, it's the many brilliant people who've also chosen climbing as a way of life -- you drawn me to this community.
We never considered aiding all the way up that wall. Our aim was to create a free climb. I started to say "put up," but one result of our stylistic decision is that I don't get to use that language here. For the first time in my life. I'm a trad guy, not much of a bolter, and this was the first time I've ever rap bolted.
So the goal was a free climb. But just as we rejected aid (irrelevant) we also rejected the total monopoly -- I could say stranglehold -- of death routes on the central South Face. I'll leave off the R-rated stuff marching in from the left, beginning way back with Snake Dike and including Autobahn and Cataclysmic Megasheer -- good routes I aspire to. And yeah, I'll be happy on them that someone else put the bolts in and I can focus instead on the quality of the climbing.
But rejecting the monopoly the X-men had on this wall meant going beyond our cherished ground-up ideals. For me, it was the first time. It is a compromise. Remember, it took us a lot of thought over a long time to go there. So we must have had good reasons, for us, to do it. We wanted us, and you, to be able to climb on this stellar rock without putting our lives on the line. For us the climbing up there was worth it. We wish you the same. If our compromise is distateful to you, go climb Southern Belle. Probably much similar rock. Your choice, and now there is a choice.
That rock is unique. Nothing like it in the Valley. Nothing like it in Tuolumne that I've seen, which is a lot more surprising. It's exciting! Go check it out.
I still feel divided within myself for coming in from above. When Werner says "just walk on by," a part of me goes "right on!" Absolutiststs and the more judgmental among us may struggle with this, but it's my honest feeling. In the end, I too voted with my feet. And I still believe in what I did. What we did.
One thing that really surprises me as I "grow up" -- a process fo' sho', that one -- is realizing how much the tendency to cling to absolutes and to be judgmental varies among us all. They're not givens, but rather personality traits. (see the Meyers-Briggs Personality Types, a series of sliding scales begun by C.G. Jung. The first of four is the well known scale going from introvert to extrovert. The fourth and final scale is anchored at one end by the trait of judging and runs the other way to "perceiving." That scale has been very illuminating to me as I scan us climbers who are, yes, a lot like humans.) So clinging to absolutes and being judgmental is, while not exactly a person's choice, at least a variable among us. But if you live in that realm, your tendency is to feel righteously that we all should be like you. But -- surprise -- we're not. Catch-22 anyone? Check it out...
So when I say I feel torn within myself about this decision to rap bolt, I'm not going wishy-washy on you but telling my truth. Doesn't make this discussion any easier, just more real. And it's a heads-up from my world to the loudly judgmental fringe of this discussion. Think about it. May be too real for some, too (ahem) runout... So if this still makes you squirm inside then you can retreat, gravitate instead to what we actually did, how in the end we voted with our feet. And we can carry on from that level. But the rabbit hole goes deeper than that...
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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I propose that all posters to this thread who have not climbed the Bachar-Yerian and/or cannot lead 5.12 trad should be banned from posting on this thread. I mean, come on, how can mere mortals like myself even have an opinion ??
Cracko
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