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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ed-
What's not metaphysical about this statement from the article I cited?
Although we might well solve part of the dark matter conundrum in the coming years, the larger mystery winds out in front of us like a train snaking into the fog.
We may never know where we came from. We will probably never find that cosmic connection to our lost royalty. Someday I will visit Norway and look up those ancestors. They died not knowing the fate of the universe, and so will I, but maybe that’s all right.
Steven Weinberg, a University of Texas physicist and Nobel Prize winner, once wrote in his 1977 book “The First Three Minutes”: “The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless.” Dr. Weinberg has been explaining that statement ever since. He went on to say that it is by how we live and love and, yes, do science, that the universe warms up and acquires meaning.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Steve Weinberg has written enough in the popular literature to be known as notoriously skeptical of not only religious, spiritual and mystical explanations of reality, but also about philosophical discussions regarding such things. So my reading of that passage drains out all such interpretations. It would be most direct to ask Weinberg himself what he means, but I will interpret that from what I understand of his position.
The more we learn about the universe, the more it becomes evident that there is no deeper meaning then the one we originate inside of ourselves.
That's it. Nothing mystical about that at all. There is no physical force which binding our conciousnesses together in some commonality, there is no supernatural power infusing purpose and meaning and dispensing justice. There is nothing but what we have seen, or what we will see, with ever sharpening empirical methods and insightful physical theories.
You can read that statement a lot of different ways and extract out many divergent meanings. You can deconstruct that passage and infer some very strange things. All of this has been criticized by Weinberg in the past, essentially stating that the lack of rigor and precision that characterizes language makes it unsuitable as a vehicle for producing knowledge, and therefore, fields of study which use language as its primary tool will not produce knowledge.
But you'd have to ask him yourself what he actually meant.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"Happy New Year" Benchwarmers come out and plaaaeeeaaay!
Daily Readings from the Life of Christ (vol.2) By John MacArthur
http://www.gty.org/Radio/Archive
MtPacifico78
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the struggle between science and religion
is reflected in the struggle between "the word" and "the number"
some mathematicians say that the existence of mathematics proves there is a god
others say the proof is not rigorous
but that it is a conjecture, and not a well supported one
though the mystery of why there is a mathematics
is unanswered
my guess is that the physicists will need to weigh in
because they know how to connect the numbers to the universe
and they translate that into words
but the time of logos is long past
the time when we could idle next to the pond
in rapture of our reflection
projected into the heavens and beyond
belong to a bygone day
us in our youth
before awareness
of all that there is
and realization
of all that there is not
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WBraun
climber
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my guess is that the physicists will need to weigh in
because they know how to connect the numbers to the universe
and they translate that into words
This is the ascending process of trying to gain knowledge.
They will fall into the black hole.
The descending knowledge is superior.
If I don't know algebra I will ask Ed since he's in the superior position at that in relation to me. (crude example)
Not that I guess .....
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Ed said,
"but the time of logos is long past
the time when we could idle next to the pond
in rapture of our reflection
projected into the heavens and beyond
belong to a bygone day
us in our youth
before awareness
of all that there is
and realization
of all that there is not"
That made me think, that a child thinks he is the center of his world, and that's cute in children, I get bored with that,
I want to see God in the reflection, and the word says that Jesus is the exact representation of God, a loving God!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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and I will try to teach Werner mathematics, so he can ascend on his own, because I cannot climb the climb for him, he has to learn how to climb if he wants to get out of it something of value.
Maybe once he does that, he will ascend a bit higher, or a bit harder, and come back and tell me how he did it, so that I might also go that way
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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YAH, Werner better learn how to climb!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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if there is descendent truth, the rock provides it...
we get up it, or we don't
nothing more, nothing less
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Thanks Ed!
It definitely helps to have someone more familiar with the author's original intent. Once again we have run into the problem of words and language on the one hand and perceptions on the other. I am reminded of authors or artists who read the critics discussions of what their works mean and are amazed as they never intended any such thing, yet in retrospect, have to admire the critic for finding a meaning that was hidden even to themselves!
Physicists however, seem less appreciative of the reader's hidden meaning. Perhaps then that will be their professional cross to bear (other than lack of funding) - that their findings are constantly misinterpreted by artsy, poetic, philosophical types who use them for their own ends.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Meanwhile, has anyone read Maria Coffey's latest book, Explorers of the Infinite: The Secret Spiritual Lives of Extreme Athletes? I got the book for Christmas. I've just started it and was amazed to read that Royal had a spiritual conversion and joined a church.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Reminds me of another book called "Bone Games" that delves into the physiology of the "athletic high," especially in alpine pursuits.
Oh, and, uh,
Happy New Year Ardi!
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MH2
climber
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"Ardi" is the nickname given to a shattered skeleton that an international team of scientists painstakingly excavated from the Ethiopian desert, analyzed over the course of 15 years, and declared Thursday to be a major breakthrough in the study of human origins. Ardi lived more than a million years before "Lucy," a much-celebrated, 3.2 million-year-old fossil of an early human progenitor found just 45 miles away.
And so Norton spoke,
and there was an Original Post
and Norton conceived of the Creationists fleeing to the dugout
but Norton's followers strayed from his teachings
and the Creationists called out in tender irony from the dugout,
"Look, Norton, at what you yourself have created."
and Norton looked on in dismay,
and contemplated calling down the waters over the heads of his errant flock
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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that's one way to look at it MH2
another way is that the Creationists have abandoned an untenable position and have changed the subject to something way more complex with less solid science backing
Werner keeps projecting his designer aspirations on the universe
Gobee just turns up the cut-and-paste style argument in attempt to win by exhausting his opponents
and the mystical side just keeps saying that since you cann't understand it with science now, you can't understand it, therefore it must be true that there is something else... a dubious logical approach
still others say it is self evident, and if you don't agree, then you are either a dishonest or you are an idiot
but certainly we are talking about two entirely different things which are immiscible
one is the world as it presents itself to our senses, and the extensions of those senses... the material, the measurable
and the other is the existence of the interior world which is the product of our consciousness, and its extension
Both of these worlds exist... we run into trouble insisting that somehow, both of these worlds must be understandable in the same way, by the same terms, with the same rules.
To me this is not a mystical statement in the way the mystics would like it to be... nor is it a religious statement, nor a philosophical one.
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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Nah, the Creationists have been taking called strikes since the publication
of The Origin Of The Species, over 150 years ago.
They come up to the plate, never connect, and run back to the dugout.
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MH2
climber
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but certainly we are talking about two entirely different things which are immiscible
one is the world as it presents itself to our senses, and the extensions of those senses... the material, the measurable
and the other is the existence of the interior world which is the product of our consciousness, and its extension
What makes you sure they are so different, to the point of being immiscible?
begin quote
FRANK: But how could you have access to my private mental states?
EPISTEMOLOGIST: Private mental states? Metaphysical hogwash! Look, I am a practical epistemologist. Metaphysical problems about mind versus matter arise only from epistemological confusions. Epistemology is the true foundation of philosophy, but the trouble with all past epistemologists is that they have been using wholly theoretical methods, and much of their discussion degenerates into mere word games. While other epistemologists have been solemnly arguing such questions as whether a man can be wrong when he asserts that he believes such and such, I have discovered how to settle such questions experimentally.
end quote
from 5000 BC and Other Philosophical Fantasies
Raymond Smullyan
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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One thing this thread has helped me to do, is understand my own positions from the point of view of others. Ironically, before this thread, I had just gone through a period of thinking that maybe all of the interior experiences I have had were just self induced biochemical or electrical reactions. Thus I had already started reading to try to figure out which chemicals and which electrical paths. This was provoked by a student showing me a diagram of the serotonin circuit in the brain which clearly resembles what the Buddhists and Hindus call the thousand petaled lotus or 7th chakra.
Thanks to this thread, I have done a lot more reading on the research done so far, to try to connect the mystical and electro-biochemical world of the brain. Clearly that is something scientists and mystics can collaborate on and so many people are interested, it's developing into a whole new field of research. In as much as researchers have now established that prayer and meditation when done over a long period of time, permanently alter the circuitry and chemistry, sometimes even the size, of certain areas of the brain, the least we can say about it, is that spiritually developed techniques for changing the brain represent a form of culture- induced biological evolution.
In addition to focussing my mind and getting biochemical-electrical results however, I have experienced psychic phenomenon, synchronicity, physical and spiritual healings etc. which, if I produced them all myself, indicates that the brain has 100 times more power than we imagine. Since many of them have been related to helping other human beings or animals on occasion, and have helped me to be a better, happier person, and probably saved my life on at least one occasion, then it seems they should be of general interest and use as well, which is what all the mystical traditions also teach.
Let us remember however, that neurophysiologists denied that the autonomic nervous system could be altered by human will, until yogis and meditation masters proved in labs (MIT was at the forefront) that it could be done. Now it is taken as routine that almost everyone can alter their temperature and blood pressure etc. after we relabeled it as bio feedback. It was not scientists who led the way to these new therapeutic techniques however, rather it was their wish to discredit the spiritual people, which produced the breakthrough.
Acupuncture is a field that is awaiting a similar paradigm shift. Western practitioners first denied its efficacy, then were forced to admit it works better than narcotics in some cases and can be used as an anesthetic. They still don't know how it works however, because they insist on attaching it to something physical but can't find the connection with any known system of blood, lymph, nerves etc.
Of course the Chinese practitioners keep telling them that it works through the energy body, the electro-magnetic field around the human body and that until they understand this, they will never understand the underlying mechanism. The Russians produced Kirlian photography which demonstrates this energy field, but still science is reluctant to accept it because it is non physical. Of course auras and halos have been known to religious/spiritual people for a long time.
Perhaps a better understanding of the human brain and body is all that the mystical traditions will provide. Perhaps spiritual disciplines apply only to life forms on this earth and do not extend beyond our biosphere. Perhaps also as current science maintains, it is an untenable leap to extend any of these findings to the cosmos. For sure, the answers to the cosmic questions will not be solved in our lifetime.
Meanwhile, scientists have faith that the cosmic explanation is material and mystics have faith that the underlying substratum is mental and in that sense, although I hate to admit it, as the intuitional, mystical, right brain always searches for unity, there do seem to be irreconcilable differences at this point in history.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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That's a wonderful post Jan, full of insight and truth. I might take some exception to the last paragraph where you write
Meanwhile, scientists have faith that the cosmic explanation is material and mystics have faith that the underlying substratum is mental and in that sense, although I hate to admit it, as the intuitional, mystical, right brain always searches for unity, there do seem to be irreconcilable differences at this point in history.
I don't think the differences are irreconcilable, we just haven't made a serious bid to reconcile them. Maybe we're just not quite ready.
After all, this "Material" that science believes forms the universe is pretty dang etherial even by their definitions. Science considers material to be made of vibrating energy that is mostly empty space. They consider most of the universe to be packed with dark matter and energy that we know almost nothing about? Who is really to say where our scientific trip down the rabbit hole will lead?
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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As sunlight maintains the entire universe, so the light of the soul maintains this material body.
As soon as the spirit soul is out of this material body, the body begins to decompose; therefore it is the spirit soul which maintains this body.
The body itself is unimportant.
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