WoS "confessions"--The whole truth about the "enhancements"

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climber

Cardiff by the sea

Nov 26, 2009 - 05:26pm PT

This freaking awesome! "Black Friday" Bwahaha!

Damn right madbolter1 this is one hell of a public stage and it is set. I look forward to see how things play out.

I would bet if everyone just ignored LEB and not resond to her ignorance she just might go away again.

Curt

Boulder climber

Gilbert, AZ

Nov 26, 2009 - 05:28pm PT

The plot thickens...

Or deepens...

Curt

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 05:31pm PT

SG: if you can continue to say that, then you are significantly more clueless than I have imagined (which is saying something). Do you not even read what I write that you supposedly "respond" to?

So, let me be clear: what we have said about the "enhancements" stands and will continue to stand, regardless of what your fanatical quest "discovers." Nothing you do at this point can possibly affect that. Your whole cut-off time is pure bravado, and can be dispensed with, as I don't acknowledge YOU as a god or able to make meaningful deadlines.

We left nothing countable in the way of "enhancements," so count all you want, and chop if you choose. The points I have tried to make over the years are made.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Nov 26, 2009 - 05:56pm PT

Almost any aid climb that's been around 20 years that I've been on has had endless damage from repeated nailing, heading and whatnot.

Get over it. People probably should have stayed off El Cap altogether until 1990 if you really care about preserving grains of granite and climbing for future generations. What if the Shield headwall was only climbed starting in 2006 with the cleanest possible gear?

Then El Cap would be like much of Tuolumne, mandatory freeclimbing and leadouts so many routes are only accessible by the elite.

As soon as an aid climb starts getting ascents, it starts changing and getting hammered here and there. Zodiac was clean and then purists cleaned the fixed stuff and we're hammering on it again

WTF? It's a weird game and mostly in our minds. There are tons of EL Cap routes that aren't much worth doing, or that almost never get done, and nobody cares.

WHich makes this a senseless ego circus

PEace

Karl

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 26, 2009 - 06:06pm PT

In spring 2010, it will have been 28 years since Wings of Steel was climbed. Given the passage of time, it may be a challenge now to climb the route, and come to conclusions as to what was done in 1982 - focusing solely on the physical: alteration of the rock. Others may debate the style and value of the route, whether the alterations that were made (once identified) were within the ethos of the climbing community and routes on El Capitan at the time, who we can believe about what, who did or didn't do or say what in 1982 or since, whether a route on such a feature should be considered sui generis, and so on. I'll stay out of all that.

My interest is in what evidence there is now as to what physical alterations were made to the rock in 1982, based on such evidence as is available from 1982, and any that has been provided since, or would be available from an objective, thorough inspection of the climb in 2010. The best way to obtain that information appears to be by having several competent, objective climbers rappel Wings of Steel, carefully examine what they see, and report, amd draw such conclusions from the evidence as are reasonable. That is, a rappel examination - before anyone climbs the route, which may further change its condition. If the route was then climbed, with whatever information that adds, so much the better.

The debate needs to be founded on facts: What exactly was and wasn't done to the rock in 1982? There is some evidence from that time:

Previous attempts on the lower part.

The book and photos, and subsequent reports from the protagonists.

Observations from reliable persons as to what they saw at the time.
Little of this is entirely objective, and people's memories now as to what happened in 1982 may not be reliable.

There is some subsequent information, mostly from people who've attempted or climbed the first few pitches, or examined sections of the climb. Perhaps the climbers or observers in 1982, or others since, took useful photos. Careful examination of old photos sometimes reveals useful things.

If the rock has subsequently been further altered by erosion, ice or rock fall, or attempts/ascents which accidentally or otherwise caused change, there may be no way to measure or even know that. Perhaps a geologist can advise as to whether erosion (water, snow, ice) is likely to have had significant effects. (Major effects, such as damage to bolts, hangers, and rivets, should be observable.) It seems likely that the first few pitches have also incurred alteration due to subsequent ascents/attempts - microfeatures may not always be durable.

A rappel and examination should be informative, and allow useful inferences. It might not be conclusive, but may provide more objective information about the situation than anything else, particularly if the work was thoroughly documented. It could certainly record all the bolts and rivets that were placed, bat hook holes of any depth, and head and piton placements. All leave evidence. Dislodged flakes also, as they often leave something of a scar - although they may not be human-caused, or have furthered the climb. And it should be possible to swing to either side of the route, to unclimbed rock, and compare. Probably fairly similar, although the route followed a supposed line of weakness.

[Involving several persons, rappelling, and thoroughly documenting what is seen, seems the only way to obtain a reasonably objective report. Having an ascent follow the climb avoids the application of the Heisenberg thing. Of course, if the protagonists wanted to participate, so much the better.]

Finding and recording the 'enhanced' placements may be the crux of the challenge, even with the information that has been provided about them. There may not be much if any physical evidence, even on rigorous examination. A chip, chisel and drill fest should leave lots of physical evidence, and speak for itself. Cleaning a few grains of rock to enhance tiny edges, using the 'edge' of the hook, a drill, or a hammer, may not leave clear evidence. If there are only 20 such enhancements over 13 pitches, just finding them could be a challenge. (If there seem to be 100 or more such enhancements, readily identifiable, and nothing similar can be seen on nearby rock, the inference might be clear.)

Maybe the physical evidence isn't there, or won't be conclusive. But a thorough rappel examination of the climb as it is now may be more informative than anything else that could be done, and might even finally end some of the debate. It would be nice if Wings of Steel had a second ascent, but one preceded by a rappel examination of the climb, some or much of which has not been repeated, and which so may be quite informative. If the rappellers replace the belay bolts en route, OK with me.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Nov 26, 2009 - 06:18pm PT

No substitute for direct examination and that is my intention. The matter will be settled as a result. What could be better?!?

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 06:19pm PT

I concur with your assessment, Mighty Hiker. Honestly, I would hate to see anybody get hurt on the basis of bravado alone, particularly when such an attempt cannot provide any more (and will probably provide less) objective analysis than a rappel descent would.

And, I think I speak also for Mark, when I say that we really don't care what gets done with the route at this point. Replace all the rivets with 1/4" bolts for all we care. Chop it and put up a new one it the "best style according to SG." We don't care. The route is not "ours" in any sense of the word, and people that have attached their emotional well-being to some hunks of metal in the side of a cliff are pretty sad-off, imho.

Nothing that is done, or not done, to the route at this point has any effect on what Mark and I did, how we did it, or what we got out of it. Lies and defamation about who we were and are as people will continue to arouse me to defend the facts. But the route, qua the patch of El Cap, is meaningless to me.

Have at it!

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 06:21pm PT

Crossing posts.

SG, do you REALLY think that the matter will be settled?

Wow!

Your arrogance and bravado ARE EPIC!

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Nov 26, 2009 - 06:38pm PT

Aw geez, yous guys are writing faster than I can read and respond! The only thing I had time to read was what Lois wrote. Naturally I skipped Richard's diatribe because it is too long, but I can probably stomach it after a couple beers.

Lois:

I like you and think you're OK. My comment regarding Loisification was completely tongue-in-cheek and not meant to be offensive. But the questions you ask are questions which we as climbers understand, and for the most part "get", although they are also very hard questions to answer. I can appreciate that as a non-climber you would love to get answers, but honestly, hon - we can't be bothered.

Say this is a knitting forum. [I don't know anything about knitting]. And say it is populated by people who have spent a lifetime knitting. Then a non-knitter, such as yourself, comes on and starts asking questions, asking us to explain fundamentals about say darns or pearls or whatever that everyone who knits fully understands, but you as a non-knitter do knott.

Accordingly, this might be a good time to sit back and not interrupt concerning issues that you really don't understand, nor are you likely to understand until you too have invested the time and energy learning how to knit, and hung your ass out on the end of knitting needle, and cheated death high above the carpet, and so on.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 26, 2009 - 06:47pm PT

The examination has to precede the ascent. Ideally, the subsequent climbers wouldn't be part of the inspection team, or even talk with them, so as to preclude suggestions of pre-inspection, and thousands more posts about that. But I can understand why they might want to have a look and say their bit.

My post upthread was a thought-experiment, looking at this as a forensic/legal challenge. That is, what objective evidence can be found, and how, and what can reasonably be inferred from it? It might at least somewhat reduce the scope of wrangling.

WBraun

climber

Nov 26, 2009 - 06:52pm PT

Kevin

That's so 1980's

Now-a-days a POV (Point of View) camera mounted on a helmet with a wireless transmitter to a mobile unit with internet uplink and you can have live feed to the world with just minimal latency.

But anyways .... this whole thing here might set a precedence on absurdity.

WBraun

climber

Nov 26, 2009 - 07:06pm PT

Kevin

Maybe we can get Hoover to get a TV satellite network vehicle to cover it.

Then after it's all over they'll most like capture us all and lock us up forever in the padded "White Room".

Edit; Thanks Kevin, same to you.

Today is a good day to not be a turkey ......

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Nov 26, 2009 - 07:08pm PT

I'll go one step further....

HAPPY TURKEY DAY!!!!.....

....

Lois!

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Nov 26, 2009 - 07:35pm PT

The kook who vowed to leave this forum has returned to using LEB (rather than howeirddean handle)
once again spews the same bullshít:

PS - don't bother flaming me on this "climbing" (aka fighting) thread as I am not returning to it.

-then quite predictably spews on with post after post of long-winded, clueless nonsense.

And as usual, isn't the least bit deterred by the any of the following:

Once LEB visits your thread........

loisified!

LEB- Your opinion on this thread and on the forum in general holds no value for me personally, just so you know.

LEB- Go fish somewhere else...

LEB, you and all your questions are completely illegitimate.

Geez Lois

I would have thought, after your last experience here, you'd have returned and only infested Loisy threads where we're used to you.

Posting here about a heated issue is buying a ticket to a ride out on a rail!

I suppose crashing an orgy and demanding that the participants explain the birds and the bees to you would be legitimate too, eh?

Is anyone surprised?

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Nov 26, 2009 - 07:42pm PT

Don't feed the Lois!

Start another thread about Lois so this thread can have it's own pure dysfunction.

Actually Lois mucking it up might be just the distraction it needs but at least we're still trying to get somewhere

PEace

karl

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Nov 26, 2009 - 07:46pm PT

The ego / self-absorption of that woman is astounding!

The thread's already mucked in the ass (loisified), so no harm getting my 2 cents in...

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Nov 26, 2009 - 08:08pm PT

Life may be a bitch, but you're the biggest egotist on this forum (and by far the most loquacious).

It really IS all about YOU, isn't it?

So why did you stop posting as howweirddean?

divad

Trad climber

wmass

Nov 26, 2009 - 08:19pm PT

I'm knott vested in this argument, but at this point in the conversation, Lois's questions seem legitimate as any (today, anyway).

Yeah, I know that ain't saying much, but they bring it down to ground level.

Or perhaps I'm in the holiday mood.. I dunno....

Carry on....