Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 12:08am PT
|
We can all wait. I suspect this is something we can all relate to, making it all the more poignant.
Tomorrow is Sunday, a day when a lot of us will be at the crags. Be extra careful out there tomorrow, if you need a reason, do it in Woody's memory. "Do I have to draw you a map?"
|
|
drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 12:10am PT
|
{{{{TRUE DAT}}}} JAYBRO, be safe people.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 12:21am PT
|
Tyeary said -- "When the details are made public, there should be no recriminations, no second guessing, and no backlash against anyone."
That was my original goal for asking what happened. The reason behind my interest was that there were so many times during my years in this climbing life I came so close to ending up in a body bag myself. Ropes got chopped, I fell out of crack free soloing but my knee miraculously got caught, sliding down into the abyss on ice slope only to have the only tree in sight catch me, and on and on.
So I know that "Sh'it happens" it rears up totally unexpected at times ..... anywhere.
|
|
MisterE
Trad climber
One Place or Another
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 08:43am PT
|
Well put, Tony.
Just go look at the mess on Rockclimbing.com started by that idiot Majit in the accidents forum if you want to see what unchecked speculation about unconfirmed events by thoughtless vultures is all about.
Very happy most of the crew here is much more respectful and considerate.
I love you guys.
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 09:56am PT
|
On the one-week mark, my thoughts go to those who loved Woody. Hoping that memories of past good times and poignant moments with him can help ease the pain.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 11:38am PT
|
What this (and the other complimentary thread on Rockclimbing.com) thread shows me that if the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is not forthcoming in a reasonable amount of time, we'll all start floundering in an attempt to pull the facts out of whomever has them, by force if need be. That impulse to get the facts happens iregardless of how anyone feels about it, what is "right" and polite and respectful, cha cha cha. Threats and judgements fly and people are called out but it's all anxiety from being stranded in traffic, so to speak.
I wouldn't put too much hope in any "official" version being clear about the facts. The last one (posted on the Gov. website a few days after the accident) was apparently fabricated or imagind by a novice and did not deal with the actual details (as they have been explained to me by Al and others).
Telling people to chill out and relax and so forth is no longer constructive or viable. I think it's about time to put all this snarky crosstalk to rest, to discuss the facts and move on.
JL
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 11:52am PT
|
JL: "What this (and the other complimentary thread on Rockclimbing.com) thread shows me that if the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is not forthcoming in a reasonable amount of time, we'll all start floundering in an attempt to pull the facts out of whomever has them, by force if need be."
I disagree strongly with this judgment. What this has showed us is that ST will self-police, to a surprising extent, at least if the incident involves someone well known here. I didn't see anything in the conversation over Woody's accident press beyond civility. Werner asked for an accounting, was told one would appear in a few days, and then let it rest.
The clusterf*#k over at RC.Com, on the other hand, demonstrated how badly that site needs moderation. At 2 a.m., the mods locked it down. It took a long time because apparently they were all out climbing. Imperfect, but hardly a disaster.
In this case, it's been what, a week? Think about how long it takes for an official SAR report to appear. Think how long it used to take for ANAM. Yes, the net has accelerated everything, but it is not only tactless but also counter-productive to demand that close family and friends and randoms on the scene jump online and immediately begin to feed the beast.
Most eyewitness accounts are close to worthless, and even those coming from trained eyewitnesses --cops, first responders, etc.--are notoriously difficult to evaluate. In this case, a week isn't much time to wait for reports that will be coming from non-professionals who were directly involved with the victim.
Let's face it, I don't think any of us believe that we are going to learn something that could suddenly change everything we thought we knew about climbing, and that during the week without a report, thousands of innocent n00bs will have put their own lives at risk as a result. I don't see that sort of urgency, and I trust those close to the incident to have shared with us if there were something that demanded urgent attention.
What this episode shows us, is that those of us who have some measure of influence or control over the sites should exercise that influence and control and show that our culture is at least occasionally capable of restraint and reflection and sobriety. The feeding frenzy of f*#ktards over at RC is an embarassment for the sport, and we should do everything we can to prevent it becoming the norm. Folks in other communities-- leo, land management, media --do occasionally take notice.
As for those folks who absolutely can't go a week without morbid details, f*#k them.
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 12:03pm PT
|
klk expresses my feeling totally.
You all lived BITD without knowing the minute details of accidents to people you had never met nor heard of previously.
What I HAVE learned from this death and the internet response is that I will be extremely careful in posting to any such threads in the future, with a FIRST priority being those left behind.
I hope I have always been sensitive enough to realize there were family members and loved ones reading the threads during the the most fragile time of their grieving periods. They DO. Because it is a way to help process the awful reality that their loved one has passed. But when I think back at some of the *technical* discussions I have read on death and serious accidents in the past, I shudder.
I don't want my remarks, even made inadvertantly, to be the source of pain for someone who is grieving their loss. Woody's passing has given me this awareness and though I would so much rather it have been something he told me with one of his subtle comments in the forums, or out climbing, or sitting in the Country Kitchen or something, I hear it now. To keep this in mind, for me, is a way I can honor Woody's life.
|
|
T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
|
With all due respect! In my opinion we need to learn WTF actually happend. If I were as close to Woody as many here at the taco stand were, I would want to make sure that the tribe (old school and noobs alike) learns from the terrible miss hap that took Woody. We as climbers need and disserve to know.
If for some reason I ever go in, please give respect to my loved ones and those close to me first, then report the technical information and facts about what happend. Then learn from my mistake or if there was gear failure analize it and fix the problem. This information is key to help reduce the odds for the rest of us.
If We have to wait for the report in ANAM so be it.
|
|
Karen
Trad climber
So Cal Hell
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
|
Thanks to all of you who have shown restraint and civility, you have a much higher standard of ethics than those-as one of you so succinctly put it-"those fuktards at RC. com". It is appreciated and shows respect for Woody's kids, myself and his close friends.
Thank you,
Karen
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
|
in response to largo and T2 i am reposting my own comment from earlier in the thread:
"there are always things to be learned from these unfortunate events (and sometimes from the more fortunate events too), but there is simply no urgency in that interest.
the people involved are dealing with stuff. they should deal with their own stuff. they should be allowed to deal with their own stuff. when they feel like sharing some of their stuff, that's the time to be interested, not before.
just look at the resource the AAC publishes in ANAM-
it's not important how long before the publishing any of those incidents occurred. the information is out there and it's helpful to all of us in many ways, but the time-line is not what makes it valuable.
what's more, if anything at all happened that could have been prevented by this or by that, it doesn't spoil anyone's memory of anyone else or tarnish anyone's legacy (as a person or as a rock climber).
we all play a dangerous game.
there are lots of ways to make the game safer (or make it seem safer?), but those are not the only ways the game is played, and we all know it.
best wishes and blessings to everyone who could use a few extra."
just because the internet exists does NOT mean that all information on everything will always be available immediately, nor should it. just go on with your own life, and take this opportunity to demonstrate your own compassion. sooner or later this "need to know" will be in the rear view mirror. any "urgency" here is simply artificial. go watch some college hoops...
|
|
HandCrack
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal.
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
|
I have a bit different view on this topic, one which will no doubt be unsatisfying and unpopular with many.
It wouldn't bother me at all if the details of Woody's accident were never made public. Obviously family and close friends deserve to know what happened but that's as far as it needs to go.
Do we need the examples of someone's mistakes (assuming there were some) to give us more compelling reasons to follow fundamental safety practices? No! Will we learn something we didn't know that will prevent us from making a similar mistake? I doubt it.
If indeed there is something important to be learned from this, it should be told. But unless there is some very real lesson that can help others, I see no reason for the morbid and insatiable curiousity on the part of many.
For me, the only important thing is that a dear friend and father has been lost. At the very least, patience sould be shown for those closest to him.
|
|
T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
|
In response to Matt: Is college hoops that game they play, were guys (usaully african americans) run around and try to throw the big orange ball through the hoop?
As I said in my original post "If We have to wait for the report in ANAM so be it"
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
|
HandCrack wrote:
Do we need the examples of someone's mistakes (assuming there were some) to give us more compelling reasons to follow fundamental safety practices? No! Will we learn something we didn't know that will prevent us from making a similar mistake? I doubt it.
What makes you so sure?
|
|
T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
|
Handcrack says: Do we need the examples of someone's mistakes (assuming there were some) to give us more compelling reasons to follow fundamental safety practices? No! Will we learn something we didn't know that will prevent us from making a similar mistake? I doubt it.
You are very nieve if you believe this. There are plenty on this forum and abroad that will learn from this tragedy now matter how fundimental or however simple it may seem.
|
|
kwit
climber
california
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
|
I post here every now and then for advice--mostly lurk--and I've been reading this thread because the moments of luminous humanity in it have been captivating and moving to me.
I never knew the man called Woody but he seems like he was a beautiful, fearless, marvelous person who would actually do the things most of us only lie about in chat rooms later and I have tremendous respect for people like that. People like that remind us exactly how far the infinite possibilities of life actually stretch and we need that sometimes.
Anyway, since I've read the whole thread now as largely a vicarious experience, I just wanted to say that as an onlooker I could wait forever for, or go without entirely, the details of the accident. I can't even imagine the pain some people are in right now, and expecting them to reproduce the details of that accident for a culture of critics seems like, well, expecting unfair and inhumane things.
We've all read about the myriad things that can go wrong in climbing, and we also know what can go so euphorically right. So we try hard and thoughtfully for the latter while being cautious and aware of the former, and beyond that, we can only just hope.
wishing everyone hope,
k
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
|
"Handcrack says: 'Do we need the examples of someone's mistakes (assuming there were some) to give us more compelling reasons to follow fundamental safety practices? No! Will we learn something we didn't know that will prevent us from making a similar mistake? I doubt it.'
You are very n[ai]ve if you believe this. There are plenty on this forum and abroad that will learn from this tragedy now matter how fund[a]mental or however simple it may seem."
I don't find it naive at all. I don't think much at all gets learned from the vast majority of incidents reported annually in ANAM. There are occasional events in which we learn about modalities of failure that we hadn't previously known about. But the vast majority of accidents teach us nothing technical that couldn't already have been found in stacks of published literature.
The vast majority of accidents are pilot error of one sort or another. Most of the rest involve unexpected objective danger (i.e. rockfall in areas not known for rockfall hazard, etc.) A very tiny but important percentage involve other factors that are new to us.
Personally, I don't expect any revelations from this particular case. I do understand the desire of those to build empirical casebooks of as many accidents as possible, if only for future use as data. And in any event, any fatal accident of this sort is publicly documented by a variety of different agencies regardless of our personal preferences. That process is legally necessary but invariably painful to those who knew the victims as something more than numbers or case studies.
As for what happens here at ST, we control that ourselves.
|
|
T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
|
I have never learned how to or how not to do something from ANAM.
WOW!
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
|
hey T2- sorry if i misunderstood your intent earlier
cheers
-matt
edit
i personally have learned more about what to do or not to do from ANAM than rom any other resource, w/ the possible exception of "experience".
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
|
Re: locker's post
OMG
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!