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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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DMT writes
"For many its a question of tribes. There is no more to it than that - the Israeli's are more 'like us' than are the Palestinians. And then there is that bullshit about god giving them the land - and a decent portion of Israel-supporting American morons hide behind the skirts of that one. "
That's it. Whoever is "most like us" wins.
Ironically, Israeli leaders didn't want to take Gaza in the 67 war but the military leaders took it anyway.
Peace
karl
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Pombo, McCain, Lungren... You really have a hard time picking friends Fatty. I guess you get exactly what you pay for.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"It all depends on the situation, what if Iran launched a nuke first"?
What Iranian Nuke Fatty. Where as the Iranians may (or may not) be developing a Nuclear weapon (No verifiable proof of it just innuendo, speculation and disinformation) it would take many more years for them to develop a reliable delivery system that could hit Israel. But, though Israel denies it to this day, Everyone knows that Israel already has every type of WMD including what is likely the 4th largest stock pile of nuclear weapons. Technology their spies stole from US.
Who is more likely to launch a nuke first?
"Philo, much of the land was taken from Native Americans (I won't call them "injuns" like you did)"
I called them "injuns" not out of disrespect but to highlight the racist verbage you Arab bashers regularly use
"but there were also areas which had been settled by Mexicans for generations. Similarly, much of the land which is now Israel was occupied not by "Palestinians" but by Bedouins".
Who do you think the "bedouins were? They were and are the Palestinians. Or do you believe they came from outside solely to make life miserable to Jews?
"The Mexicans might attack us"
Their only attack is by Illegal immigration.
Why don't we help them build their infrastructure? It would be cheeper that building another wall.
"The Israels have withdrawn from Gaza some time ago and it has been an autonomous region governed by Hamas".
They only withdrew their illegal unsettlers There is nothing autonomous about being subjected to three years of lock down and blockade. Can you not understand that, when not being bombed, these people are being starved to death.
"The Palestinians will flourish in their own nation on the borders Israel has established".
Jeff there is no "flourishing" in an Apartheid Bantustan.
"I know you hate the Israelis"
No Graniteclimber I do not hate Israelis. Nor do I hate Jews. Though I have no love lost for Zionist be they Jewish or Christian. I only oppose the brutal genocidal policies of the State of Israel. If they would honestly allow peaceful coexistence I would have NO problem with them.
"but the fact your wife's relatives are still alive is a testament to the restraint of the Israelis".
NO they are not all still alive. And GC it only is a testament to the reality that Gaza is an inescapable prison.
Those who leave are banned by Israel from returning. Imagine if once here we never let the Mexicans return.
"If the Israelis were as bloodthirsty and fanatical as Hamas, there would not be a single Palestinian left alive in Gaza or the West Bank. They would all be ethnically cleansed".
Which IS the long term goal of the Zionists.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"Blame the Palestinians problems on Wahabbi Clerics and Iranian Mullahs, they are the source of the problem".
Keep repeating your Mantra DaftRat eventually even you will believe it.
I prefer to hold Radical Rabbis, Rabid Zionists, American Industrialists and Ball-less American politicians responsible.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"You have your head in the sand on every issue. "
Jeff,
Sand is allot closer to Palestine than up your a*#, where your head is on any issue.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jeff,
Why refute a complete stab in the dark.
You have been wrong on every single prediction you have ever made.
There are all sorts of claims regarding Iran's capabilities - from they have the bomb now to they wont have the capability until 2015.
So pull your head out of your ass and think, Jeff.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"You have opinions here on ST, my opinions go right to the decision makers."
IF, and a big IF, what you are saying is correct, more of a reason to make sure you never hold public office. At least as it is, people in positions of power have other inputs, not just your opinion.
But I'd like to see you prove your power.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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A little pay for play with Ruddy, eh?
Come on Jeff, get one of your power buddies to post here on ST for all to see.
No third hand reports.
No "I say it there fore it is true" crap.
Get someone in power to post up!
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Yeah, right.
If you are "friends" with someone in "power" surely they can do you a favor.
Or are you out of political capital?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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With nothing left to work with DaftRat is resorting to his fall back position... Thread Drift and self pontification.
Curious thing happened last night that leads me to believe I have gotten under someone's skin.
I was out walking the dog when a nondescript sedan pulls up next to me and rolls down the window.Three guys in dark jogging suits are sitting in the vehicle. My initial thought was they were lost and wanted directions. But my dog, who is the best judge of character that I know was instantly on guard, hair raised, teeth barred and all.
But being a good civic citizen I ask if I can help. Their accents are vaguely familiar.
They proceed to ask me what I am doing, where I live, what's my name. Not really asking directions after all. Then they let it slip that they know my wife and kids names. OOPS.
Their questioning (bordering on interrogation) is just a little too personal and provocative. Knowing the Mossad's penchant for operational triads and smelling gun oil drifting from the car I put two and two together. By now my dog really wants a piece of these guys. So while holding her at bay I lean into the open window and tell them in no uncertain terms that I don't appreciate this unwarranted intrusion of my privacy. My wife is a non violent quaker. A pacifist. But being a survivor of some mean streets I am not!
I succinctly explain that I know who they are and if they approach me or my family again they will never call home to momma again. I can be fairly menacing when the need arises. So I believe they got the message loud and clear. If they had been merely street punks it is probably they would have jumped out of the car and all over me. But instead they drove off slowly, turned the corner and parked. They surveilled me till I was out of site. Haven't seem them since.
Friends of yours Fatty? If you have the connections that you endlessly pontificate that you do then I suggest you tell the thugs to back off. They have no idea who they are messing with. Let's keep this peaceful. No one want's to see the ugly Philo now do they. If I see them or any counter part comrades lurking near my home or my wife and kid's schools I won't hesitate to exact my own revenge.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"Wont't everyone be shocked when DC strolls in YellowPines. "
He never will.
...and philo nailed it.
I still want to see Jeff pull off getting a "person in power" to post here on ST.
But once again... never will happen.
Just like every other prediction Jeff has ever made or cause he has stood for. I guess someone has to be the looser.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"You were right, philo has lost it."
Jeff,
I'd watch what you say or do anymore on ST in regards to what philo posted
Remember when you threatened me by posting you were going to get the Mossad on me?
That just may come back to haunt you allot sooner than you think!
Regardless of what the reality might be.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jeff you always think I have lost it.
Why this time? Is it that you don't believe my encounter? Or that you think the Mossad is infallible and omnipotent? Please don't insult our intelligence by trying to suggest the Mossad doesn't operate in the US.
It must really irk you that Scabang's thread gets more traffic than your ridiculous CofC rants.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Simple e-mail contact to reply to.
No problem at all, Jeff.
Or would "your powerful friends" find out what you have been posting?
EDIT:
It would save everyone here allot of time if you could just do a simple thing.
Get your "powerful friends" to back you up!
Face it Jeff, you are a fraud.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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I find it interesting that I continually post legitimate information from credible, often Israeli, sources.
While Jeff posts unfounded rhetorical propaganda from the likes of Condi "skank" Rice. A member of the most discredited Presidential Administration ever. A person with a vested interest in the endless continuation of conflict.
Last update - 07:36 02/01/2009
Anshel Pfeffer / Right and Left, Diaspora Jews more critical of Israel than ever
By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent
Tags: Zionism, Hamas, Gaza
There is something very strange and more than a little frustrating for a reporter used to being on the frontlines to experience a war in Israel from afar. Having to experience the goings-on not only from the reports of one's Israeli colleagues but also through the hall of mirrors that is the international media, with its sometimes incomprehensible agenda and likes and dislikes. At least as an Israeli you know where you stand, with all the familiar personal views, loyalties and criticisms. But to be a non-Israeli Jew can be a lot more difficult during such times.
Well not for all Jews. A vast number, I hesitate to say the majority, are just not that interested. They are much busier eking out the days left of their Christmas/New Year's vacation, and news of renewed conflagration around Gaza receives only a passing register. Those who are engaged enough to really care and spend time glued to the news channels and reading every bit of information available on Web sites can be divided into three groups.
There are large number of Pavlovian flag-wavers, good and innocent Zionists and Jews who see only the trauma inflicted on the people of Sderot, Ashkelon and other parts of the country's south-west, and instinctively position themselves behind the IDF, often saying that the government should have allowed it to go in further and strike harder.
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There is, in my impression, a somewhat smaller but highly vocal group belonging usually to the more radical left, and even fewer to the anti-Israel Neturei Karta sect, who feel compelled to atone for Israel's manifold sins and join its enemies in the demonstrations and sign petitions accusing the Zionist entity of war crimes. They have cut themselves firmly off from the local community's mainstream, and they are fine where they are.
There is, though, a third stream of Jews - perhaps not the widest one, but I believe quite significant - who have more complex and uncomfortable feelings on the matter. They care deeply for Israel and understand even why its government felt compelled to launch the devastating Operation Cast Lead, but they are extremely disturbed and hurt by the level of civilian deaths and destruction that almost seems part and parcel of the action. Surely, they say, there must, there has to be another way of doing this. And they live with those doubts, often unexpressed, even among families and close friends because the worst thing they find is that others around them don't seem to discern between the different nuances, and can't find in themselves compassion for the dead and wounded on the other side. They begin asking themselves very awkward questions: Are they surrounded by latent racists, or is something wrong with them that denies the feelings of certainty of those around them? Or does everyone have similar doubts but are simply afraid to express them?
Perhaps those in the most difficult predicament are those who work daily in Jewish and community organizations, the kind of august institutes that have already felt the need to issue those meaningless announcements that "the pan-national Jewish forum stands firmly in support of Israel." Almost constantly, they find their dearest beliefs challenged.
"I just couldn't understand how the other people in the office were just incapable of acknowledging there was any real suffering on the Palestinian side, and that Israel has a significant portion of the responsibility for that," said to me a friend working in one of those organizations in London. "I feel so alone because no one seems to understand how torn I feel about this. I understand Israel's position very well and to a degree identify with the reasons for launching the operation, but why are none of them saddened by children dying? They don't even seem to see these reports."
Two sides of the same coin
My friend found his own peace by trying to keep quiet at work but donating money to an NGO purchasing medical supplies for hospitals in Gaza.
For Jews in the U.S., things are easier. Due to the size of the community and the relative self-confidence of American Jews, there are more platforms and mid-streams that allow people to show both support and criticism at the same time, and far greater openness to individuals forming and expressing their own independent views. In smaller communities like those of Britain and France, the establishment seems to operate on a siege mentality, and the ideas of "us" and "them" are much more rigid.
Many Israelis will think that all this is indulgent bleeding-heartedness on the part of those who don't serve in the IDF and pay Israeli taxes, and their families are nowhere near the range of the Qassams and Grads: Why should we care about what they are thinking? But Israel expects support, fund-raising, lobbying and media advocacy efforts to be made by the Jews of the Diaspora on its behalf, and that can only take place in an open environment.
Ultimately, only Israel's citizens, Jewish and Arab, have the right to vote and decide, but it has to be realized that while the world's Jews are still broadly in favor of Israel, they have more information and less innocence than ever before and will give that support, but with a healthy dose of criticism - whether from the Right of the Israeli government being too namby-pamby with the Palestinians, or from those on the Left who want to see the military option used as sparingly as possible.
Both Israeli and Diaspora leaders should be providing space for this kind of discourse, because stifling will not consolidate support for Israel but increase frustration and disillusionment with it.
According to Jeff I am loosing it while he has a hot line to Dick Cheney.
Speaking of little Dickie you should definitely bring him to Face Lift Jeff. That way we can exercise our right to a Citizen's arrest and haul his evil ass to the Hague to stand trial for WAR CRIMES! Please DaftRat Bring him on,
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dream on Fatty. And if as you say my head is in the sand then perhaps you could beat some sense into it if you would go pound sand.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"I won't be giving you DC's email addy. You should check in with "the Fet", he'll vouch for my connections."
You are dense, Jeff.
If you manage to pay off one of your "friends in power" to post here THEY can provide the info.
Not you. The "person in power".
Once again if you are soooooo close to "people in power" this should be no problem what so ever.
If you pulled this off, look at the shame you cast upon me!
"And I'm not ashamed of what I write here on ST, even Obama agreed with me the other day."
Sweet! Keep posting!
I'll continue to feed you rope...
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couchmaster
climber
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I generally have disliked most of your posts Philo. We don't agree on this issue. However, if true: this one really has me riled up. I find this kind of piss poor attempt at intimidation of an American citizen who was freely speaking his version of the truth deeply angering. (AGAIN...if true). Do you, or have you been, arguing this on other websites Philo?
philo wrote:
Curious thing happened last night that leads me to believe I have gotten under someone's skin.
I was out walking the dog when a nondescript sedan pulls up next to me and rolls down the window.Three guys in dark jogging suits are sitting in the vehicle. My initial thought was they were lost and wanted directions. But my dog, who is the best judge of character that I know was instantly on guard, hair raised, teeth barred and all.
But being a good civic citizen I ask if I can help. Their accents are vaguely familiar.
They proceed to ask me what I am doing, where I live, what's my name. Not really asking directions after all. Then they let it slip that they know my wife and kids names. OOPS.
Their questioning (bordering on interrogation) is just a little too personal and provocative. Knowing the Mossad's penchant for operational triads and smelling gun oil drifting from the car I put two and two together. By now my dog really wants a piece of these guys. So while holding her at bay I lean into the open window and tell them in no uncertain terms that I don't appreciate this unwarranted intrusion of my privacy. My wife is a non violent quaker. A pacifist. But being a survivor of some mean streets I am not!
I succinctly explain that I know who they are and if they approach me or my family again they will never call home to momma again. I can be fairly menacing when the need arises. So I believe they got the message loud and clear. If they had been merely street punks it is probably they would have jumped out of the car and all over me. But instead they drove off slowly, turned the corner and parked. They surveilled me till I was out of site. Haven't seem them since.
Friends of yours Fatty? If you have the connections that you endlessly pontificate that you do then I suggest you tell the thugs to back off. They have no idea who they are messing with. Let's keep this peaceful. No one want's to see the ugly Philo now do they. If I see them or any counter part comrades lurking near my home or my wife and kid's schools I won't hesitate to exact my own revenge.
I do have a bit of belief issue about that story though...like these 3 guys with faint accents don't have anything better or more productive to do at this time than to drive by to try and intimidate you? Your phone and internet is already tapped by the US Gov't, as are all of ours as well...what could they gain by a drive by? And in reading the thread above, you say that your wife is both a Palestinian and a Quaker who has recently traveled to Israel...that's very, very different and unusual as well wouldn't you say Philo? ....
(ie, Philo said: "Chaz I am sorry you missed my post that explained that my wife is Palestinian and has family and friends under fire in the war zone.
*and*
My wife just talked last night to one of her best friends. She is a wonderfully loving 90+ year old Jewish gentle woman who Loves my Quaker Palestinian wife like a daughter.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Couch I believe it speaking truth to power. Thus I have not been silent. I attend rallys and political events fairly regularly. This is not the first episode of harassment I have experienced but it was the most chillingly direct. Usually it is just a matter of being photographed sometimes followed. But this was a direct contact and as such much more intentionally intimidating.
No Fat fool you don't know me. I was for me in bed early so I could get a before dawn start for some quick ice climbing. Unfortunately the ice wasn't in good shape because of an odd warm spell (60 degrees in Boulder today) So I came back and went to sleep
Some of actually climb occasionally. Didn't post till I got back and going again. In fact I was willing to let this thread fade. But some folks won't let go.
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