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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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How many times has homosexual marriage been voted on in state initiaves across the country?
How many times has it won?
Any?
I don't see what makes you sure about seeing it legal in all 50 states, Norton.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 10, 2008 - 03:15pm PT
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Chaz, I believe gay marriage will someday be legal because I believe in an inevitably more educated human race. The entire history of progress happens because the old ones with intolerant and uneducated beliefs eventually die off and thus can not vote any more. The proof is seen in young people's attitudes nowadays, they are more educated, more used to seeing races and homosexuals mingle in society, and therefore much more tolerant and understanding that diversity IS NORMAL. It takes generations for gradual social changes to take effect, this is no different.
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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Nov 10, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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"I'm fine with Christianity"
This is one of the key lies of atheism: the pretence that atheists just don't care about religion. It's just a lie, intended to cover up the obvious truth: not only do atheists care about religion, almost all of them are absolutely obssessed by it.
How many of the threads about religion here are started by believers? Almost none. In fact 99% of them are started by atheists to scream, rant and whine about how religion is big and nasty and they just don't like it.
Perhaps you should face facts, although I doubt you have the courage to: saying "Personaly I don't care about all these religions immediately followed by "I'm just sick of the religious right in this country running around bossing everybody into what they believe" is self-contradictory nonsense.
You either care about it - in which case you'll be admitting that religion gets to you and you can't just dismiss it - or you don't, in which case quit bitching and shut your face.
I agree.
With all of the flaming of Christians on the Taco, that is so common place, where's the tolerance?
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Nov 10, 2008 - 04:05pm PT
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There have been some fine points made here, but I still say discrimination is discrimination, plain and simple.
A religious person may say "They are going against Gods word" - Who decided this? Is this a personal bias, or opinion?
I'm still saying that 20 years from now, those of you who are opposing this measure will be pointed at as discriminatory in your views. Again, it was once illegal to marry black and white! Now it is the norm, and it hasn't caused the social upevils previously thought or argued.
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coiler
Trad climber
The Rock Monkey Ranch
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Nov 10, 2008 - 04:42pm PT
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Let me clear something up here. I'm NOT allright with cristianity. Yes, I am an athiest, and I used to say that I'm allright with cristianity. The problem is the Cristians just can't stop shoving their beliefs down my throat! A cristian might be against gay marriage, or abortion, or whatever else. I don't care what they believe. But why are they always so intrested in what I am doing? Pay attention to your own lives people. One church who contributed alot of money to the yes on 8 campaign is the very church who went waliking into the Utah desert because everybody told them that it wasn't OK to have multiple wives. Now those very same people are saying that something different then what they believe should be stopped. Have they learned anything out in that desert? NO. Freedom means you have to let people make their own choices, even if it might not be the one you'd make. Tolerance! PROP 8 is not tolerance, and that's UNAMERICAN. So, to all you people who voted yes on prop 8... If you don't like freedom feel FREE to leave AMERICA. Here, we let people live free, free to marry thier gay lovers or whomever they are "in love" with. Don't like it BOO FREAKITY WHO!
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setherbugs
Social climber
Leuven, Belgium
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Nov 10, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
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since we are using animals behavior to lead us in our decisions, how many animals (besides humans) do you see getting married? zero. i guess the next step is to get rid of marriage all together, why do we need it anyway, it just causes gays "happy people" (where did that term come from anyway), to be grumpy. since gays aren't allowed to join the club, we better get rid of the club.
"Chaz, I believe gay marriage will someday be legal because I believe in an inevitably more educated human race. The entire history of progress happens because the old ones with intolerant and uneducated beliefs eventually die off and thus can not vote any more. The proof is seen in young people's attitudes nowadays, they are more educated, more used to seeing races and homosexuals mingle in society, and therefore much more tolerant and understanding that diversity IS NORMAL. It takes generations for gradual social changes to take effect, this is no different."
so what you are saying is that the public education system (no other gov. subsidized alternative exists) will eventually wear down, condition and assimilate everyone so that they will no longer care who does what, in the name of education. so the problem with everyone who voted "yes" is that they are not edumacated. yeah, that's why! and what do you do to the ones who resist "education"? there are some things that should be tolerated but somewhere you have to draw the lines, this debate, is about defining those line, or for "no" voters, trying to redefine the lines.
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setherbugs
Social climber
Leuven, Belgium
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Nov 10, 2008 - 04:47pm PT
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"If you don't like freedom feel FREE to leave AMERICA. Here, we let people live free"
we also live in a democracy where we vote.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 10, 2008 - 05:08pm PT
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Setherbugs,
First: You use only public education in your supposition, you may be interested to know that many millions of us are educated through private institutions in addition to home schooling.
Second: I did NOT say, you did, that everyone who voted for Propositon 8 is not "edumacated", not my words, yours.
You can conclude that if YOU wish, but I don't.
Third: You ask what do we do with the ones who resist education?
I assume they can continue to live in poverty, misery, intolerence and ignorance if they wish, I don't really care.
Fourth: Yes, the NO voters have spoken, so what? And yes I do believe that in time, a long time, those people will die and cease to be a dominant voting block, and progress towards recognition of everyone's committment, regardless of sex, will become the law.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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"Do you guys get off on making up these bizarre, twisted, illogical arguments? "
It beats owning up to their own bigotry. Everything I've read from those folks is just crap to cover up their own intolerance.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2008 - 05:12pm PT
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Interracial marriage Illegal until 1948! Wonder who was against it and why?
Anybody want to stand up now and say the earth is flat and white shouldn't marry asians?
Come on!
Wonder if God hates religious intolerance as much as everybody else? I doubt it, because God is full of love and created all this drama.
But still, religions would bring a lot more people to spirit if they'd quit being the opposite of the Great Being they worship.
Peace
karl
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mbb
climber
the slick
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Nov 10, 2008 - 05:15pm PT
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People think marriage between a man and a woman is sacred. Therefore we should not allow gays to marry.
Hindus think the cow is sacred. Therefore we should not eat meat.
Islam thinks the middle east is sacred. Therefore we should not go there.
Using religious arguments to support Prop 8 is beyond ridiculous or logical. The real reason it passed is because most people in California that voted for it, religious or not, think gay marriage is wrong. Voter referendums regarding moral issues show the true colors of democracy, the majority will always stamp on the rights of the minority if it is not something "good" for them.
The problematic thing is that we don't live in a democracy. There is a little thing called the Constitution that supposedly helps protect the rights of those who may not be able to protect themselves in a democracy (check out the equal protection and privileges and immunities clauses of the 14th amendment, they are pretty cool).
Hey, what if homosexuals all started a religion where they had to be married to get into heaven, then would it be ok?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2008 - 05:50pm PT
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I haven't yet read one argument for or against this proposition in this thread that remotely makes any sense.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Nov 10, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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weschrist - Thank you for the clarification on that.
TRUE!
My comment should be taken as a miscommunication on my part, and only reflects my inability to say what I was thinking. At the time I wrote that I had a minute to get to work.
I am not siding WITH proposition 8, I voted against it. Those who voted for it will be the ones labeled discriminators in the coming years.
Thanks again Wes,
Werner Edit: Not even the fact that it used to be illegal for "Whites" to marry "Blacks"? Now this is common-place, and the world has not come to an end? Restricting marriage to only be strictly "Man & Women" is clearly discriminatory, regardless of the rest of our personal religious beliefs.
Is that a good arguement against the proposition?
Oh, yeah, let's not forget the divisive nature of the proposition either! Just look at this board to see how divided this group is.
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sirloin of leisure
Gym climber
X
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Nov 10, 2008 - 09:35pm PT
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to compare the gay thing to the colored thing,is an insult to all colored folk...
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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Thanks, Werner.
That's one reason why I couldn't vote either way.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 10, 2008 - 10:11pm PT
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Werner, it's baaaad, sheesh, get with it!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 10, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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I don't see how preventing the legislation of bigotry is that hard a choice.
(Have the gays all been fixed yet? Didn't think so.)
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 10, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
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"once again...sexual orientation MIGHT be genetically determined, but our sexual behavior is completely our choice...again, as a man, i am genetically predisposed to have sex with, literally, thousands of females during my life...my reproductive system is designed (or has evolved) for it; however, i CHOOSE to be monogamous...that's right, i CHOOSE to ignore sexual drive, desires, instinct, design, evolution, etc. because i believe simply following my apetites (like an animal) would be detrimental not only to me but, more importantly, to society."
The flaw in this reasoning is that you equate exersizing choice in how many women you sleep with (1 at a time, in your case) with WHO (male or female) you are attracted to in the first place. These are not at all the same things, hombre.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2008 - 11:28pm PT
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This whole thread is based on bodily consciousness.
Since we are not this material body thus the aim of this discussion to come to a real understanding is incomplete.
You will all just tax your brains over this either way it goes, (Prop 8 for or against), and never come to a satisfactory conclusion.
Just like the driver of a Toyota Camry who falsely identifies with the vehicle due to material attachment says I'm a Toyota.
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mbb
climber
the slick
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Nov 11, 2008 - 02:13am PT
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Religious people, in determining how you would vote on such a proposition, should you follow what you feel or what your minister/priest/spiritual leader says or should you follow the Golden Rule?
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