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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Leaving rusty dangerous gear on routes for historical reasons is about the stupidist thing I've ever heard in any bolting/retro bolting argument. If the FA party so insists, they should be ignored.
I also think Ed Leeper should be forced at gunpoint to rappel off one thousand of the time-bomb anchors he wrought upon us.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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In fairness to Rich, his point has not been that the pins should never be replaced. I'd encourage folks to re-read the thread before they accept Hammer's definition of Rich's position, as seems to be happening above.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Sorry, I only skimmed Rich's post on the Needles Eye thread and I got the impression Don actually got the first ascent, my mistake. I have not re-read the post but I'll take your word for it.
Since Rich has the FA its his call, I just have a little less respect for him.
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jstan
climber
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Hammer:
Do I have this right? Your respect for Richard Goldstone has been decreased because he insists a decision affecting shared lands( The Needle's Eye) must be made by an appropriately constituted organization of climbers? Because that is his stated position. Perhaps you need to go back and actually read what he said. You apparently missed both of that post's central points.
Does this kind of thing happen to you often? If so it is pretty serious.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Hammer wrote:Since Rich has the FA its his call, I just have a little less respect for him.
I just loss a lot respect for you by saying something so immature.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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A few weeks ago I was climbing Higher Cathedral Spire with my buddy Geoff. We were following the SuperTopo guide for the Regular Route, and it says that you can go out left of the 5.8 rotten chimney on pitch 3 on a 5.9 "wild and airy traverse". Yeah, well, we did that, and boy-howdy, we ended up on some damned ledge that was very obviously the end of the line for us, not the 5.7 chimney we were supposed to find.
There were two bolts spaced about 8ft apart or so, but no way up. So we rigged a bail-off from a web-o-lett. While we were there, we saw a few old, rusty, angle pitons. While I'm relieved that we had solid bolts to rap off back to "Second Base", so we could go straight up and finish the route, It was very cool to see the old relics up there, and ponder the person and circumstances in which the pitons went in to begin with. That person was probably in a similar state-of-mind as us, however many years later. We dubbed our location "Rat Fvck Ledge".
Here is a shot of Geoff, wondering what the hell Chris Mac was talking about in the route description.
I don't know, sometimes the old stuff has got to go. But sometimes it's cool to see the old stuff. It makes you appreciate what people did in previous generations. I had a FA who doesn't climb anymore once ask me to put a few new good bolts on a route he put up, but please leave the old stuff, because they have cool home-made hangers and stuff. It's like looking at a little slice of history. But that doesn't mean it is at all safe to clip. It also makes you appreciate they work that others are doing to keep routes climble.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Yes guys, you've got it right, I have less respect for Rich because he wants to continue leaving a route 'off limits' to anyone who won't risk his life to lead it. (as though 40 years hasn't been enough)
Many of you have described ways to get around the risk by placing backup gear but do you really think you 'repeated' the route when you do that. Face it, none of you have the stones to repeat the route on the old pins.
Imagine if you could change a hiking trail so that 95% of people wouldn't/couldn't hike it...some of you would actually do it so you could be 'better', 'stronger', 'bolder', more 'adventurous', more 'visionary', etc., etc. Hikers wouldn't let you do that to public property.
One of these days someone will die from a fall off the Needles Eye, then no one will be able to climb it.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Someday someone will get killed on an 8' folding ladder. Everthing must be pipe scaffolding and not too rusty. Nameless Hammer- you are an idiot with a cup and ball that is your empty and losing stance. You can't reasonably expect that which you are not willing to provide, namely respect. Keep trying, you'll figure it all out. And people will continue to climb the Needles Eye even if you parade around in a sandwich sign and bullhorn warning them of impending doom. We are talking 5.8 here remember. The horror, the horror. Yuk Yuk Yuk! GAK!
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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>> Now *that* is something I can get behind! CUBS WIN!!!!!!!
And exactly what, pray tell, did/will the Cubs win? The goat award?
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jstan
climber
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Hammer:
You are still having trouble coming into balance with the real world around you. Richard is only suggesting how the decision should be made. He said he would go with whatever a properly constituted organization of climbers decides.
You may be thinking you are just spinning like so many do today. But you are well outside of that envelope. I repeat. You are well outside of that envelope. You are having trouble understanding the world around you. I strongly suggest you not go climbing again until you have gotten help.
I would also comment that in the past when I have decided whether to trust my life to a piece not placed by myself, I have assumed the person placing it was stable. This affair causes me to wonder. Perhaps all of us need seriously and immediately to consider how to qualify people assigned the task of placing fixed protection. They are articles of personal protection and are subject to considerable legal examination.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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OTEASTD wrote: "I also think Ed Leeper should be forced at gunpoint to rappel off one thousand of the time-bomb anchors he wrought upon us."
this is the sort of spew that would be a laughable indication of total ignorance if it did not contain a germ of slander, and I mean in a legal sense.
I had talked to Ed Leeper after he bravely posted his warning regarding his hangers. It should be noted that it is not just his hangers which are a problem, but all such hangers. I happened to have a stash of his hangers that I bought in the 70's, which had sat in my closet for the intervening 30 years or so. I sent him those as samples, so that they could be tested. After he tested them he called me up and we talked a long time about the "problem." It turns out that those examples I sent him were fine, they spec'd out as they had 30 years ago.
Ed's views at the time were that Stainless Steel was probably the way to go, I remember arguing that maintainence was needed for all bolts. Ed was well aware of the status of other hangers, but his ability to discuss the general problem publicly is limited, as the precise cause of hanger failures, and the attribution of hanger failures to bad accidents, is extremely difficult to show.
However, Ed took the brave and honorable path to inform the climbing community of the problems cropping up with his old hangers. HE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT, he could have just let the problem go on out there, which is precisely what the other manufacturers did.
Ed Leeper is a member of the climbing community, he understands his responsibility to that community, he has demonstrated his concern even though he knew he would hang flack for it from uninformed members of the community.
OTEASTD, Ed Leeper is totally accessible, though he doesn't suffer fools, you could probably contact him and get the story straight from him, and some of his very intelligent and informed opinions regarding how to move forward. Instead, you are just sh#t talking with absolutely no idea of the issues. If you are afraid of coming across these sorts of things on a climb, you should probably limit your climbing activities to getting into bed at night and pulling the covers over your head.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Gosh, I guess since Leeper is such a stand up guy he and his ilk should get a free pass on the thousands of potentially dangerous/fatal scenarios they created. Brave to disclose? Maybe, though it could be that knowledge + failure to warn = punitives, and I mean in a legal sense.
I've clipped plenty of those things and have always wondered how anyone ever thought bending a wafer thin piece of metal at a 90 degree angle and bolting it to a wall with a quarter inch bolt was a good idea. State of the art at the time? puh-leez. Why are there not the same concerns regarding pitons from the same era?
You say that if I'm afraid of coming across these sorts of things on a climb, which I have too many times, I should probably limit my climbing activities to getting into bed at night and pulling the covers over my head. Why don't you give a call to the loved ones of climbers killed as a result of defective mank put in during the "golden era" and tell them that. I am sure they would appreciate your wit.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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If that someone gets killed on an 8' folding ladder that someone else purposly made to be dangerous, that someone else is partly at fault. And, we're talking about a 5.8 that no 5.8 leaders will lead. Steve maybe you could come out next summer and free solo it just for yuk's, its only 5.8.
Rich is suggesting that the decision be made by the BHCC which is controlled by others who have dangerous routes they refuse to 'upgrade' to safer gear, they have a vested interest in agreeing with Rich and he knows that.
One of the infamous Needles X rated routes was recently left out of a new guidebook even though the rock it is on was featured. I think that is the way most of these routes will fade into obscurity, no one will even know they're there.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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there has to be intent, and then how do you determine what the cause of the accident is, how do you establish equipment failure?
Ed Leeper made the best equipment, his hangers "meet spec." We might not agree that those specs are appropriate now, and the bolts and hangers are being replaced. The hangers age differently depending on where and how they were placed.
The driller is responsible for bolt placement, if they don't do it correctly then you have a "bad bolt" sitting out there somewhere, might not look very different from a well placed bolt. How do you know? Shouldn't they have a bit of the responsibility too?
The National Park Service allows bolts to be placed, in fact, they only allow the holes to be hand drilled which creates a hole inferior to those machine drilled, in my opinion. They do not require any certification for the person placing them. Does the NPS also have a responsibility?
No one goes out to put bolts in that are intended to harm another climber, no one. Ed Leeper has a lifetime of supplying climbing equipment to secure the safe passage of climbers on the rock. To imply that he intentionally made equipment harmful to climbers is idiotic.
The bolt placers also do not intentionally place bad bolts... people who create routes are not thinking about the future climbers, in most case, but how do they safely exectute that climb that day.
Fact is, you have the responsibility to decide whether or not you are going to do a climb, risk the possibility that the bolt you are clipping may not be what you think it is. Beware! and if it's gettting dicey, go back, don't go on, retreat.
The climb is not more important than your life. Be responsible, you make the choices, Ed Leeper doesn't have a gun to your head making you clip his hangers.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Both Edge and Hammer are classic examples of those who think they are entitled to something in climbing. Get it straight, climbing is about adventure.
If you imagine any piece of metal that has been outside for 30 years is entirely trustworthy that is a clear indictment of your judgement. How about the connection of that piece of metal to the rock? Ever heard of frost wedging boys?
It's still way easier for you than it was for the pioneer of whatever you are doing no matter what. You have the advantage of fore-knowledge of the route and its difficulties, as well as the techniques required to overcome them.
Wanna climb routes equipped with the hardware of your choice at the spacing you require? Try doing some first ascents.
Rather than slandering other, clearly well intentioned people, I think you should embark on a voyage of self examination. Perhaps you could discover something of real value doing so. In other sports it's commonly referred to as heart.
Michael
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Rusty ole' pins 'n bolts & stoopid runouts & sanitized sport routes & young'ns & oldsters & barfights & opinions & attitudes & ideas.
C'mon fellas.
Kumbaya.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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StyMingersfink
Ice climber
hatu
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Seems to me (presuming that i'm even qualified to answer such a question), that the time is ripe for the new guard to share more intimately with the FA the FA's original experience.
New Guard... get out there, lead the old-skool 5.9+ onsight! Take a hammer and drill kit with you, hand drilling (in a appropriate place, within say... 12" of the original bolt?) a new hole in a manner similar to the FA's method (be it a stance, from hooks, or what have you). No additional holes than originally drilled, please understand, but instead a simple upgrade of the hardware to the current state-of-the-art.
Perhaps with such a technique everyone can get what they most desire... something most approximating the FA's experience (for the re-equipper), while replacing hardware for those who would like to follow but are scared off by the old rusty (and probably dangerous) hardware. If the original 1/4" 'ers and Leeper hangers are left in situ, perhaps it will enhance the "museum" experience of the new guard who choose to follow, while affirming to the old guard that there are still climbers who can and will climb with an "old-skool" ethic (the one who upgraded the hardware).
Does that sound like a "reasonable" compromise to anyone who put up a significant number of routes from "back in the day"? Would "you" provide carte-blance permission to re-equip "your" route in such a manner? Perhaps "you" might have a better solution to offer (but then wasn't that the whole point of WB's post)?
Personally, I do appreciate being able to check out the old 1/4" button heads directly adjacent to some more recent 3/8 hardware on a re-equipped route. It speaks for the route and the FA'ist, both in style and age of route. I do not advocate for the erasing of history, nor will I. I'd rather see the original hardware disintegrate to a rust streak before it would be pulled, as that speaks for the route in and of itself!
edit to add:
sorry fellas if this has already been covered. overlooked the fact that 450+ opinions had already weighed in on the subject. It might take me a bit to wade through all the responses previous to this one. :(
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Nicky d says "I think you should embark on a voyage of self examination. Perhaps you could discover something of real value doing so. In other sports it's commonly referred to as heart."
Well! I suggest YOU embark on a voyage of of self editing, so as to not inflict wince inducing cliches on the rest of us. I don't think I'm entitled to nuthin in climbing beyond what the FA party had, which was hardware that was not rusty and defective. Also, I wouldn't be spouting off on this thread if I never had hand drilled on lead so please drop your patronizing "try doing some first ascents" BS.
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