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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2018 - 11:23am PT
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Ah, next to none of that is relevant.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 14, 2018 - 11:23am PT
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Thank you, healy.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Dec 14, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
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Ah yes, Bitcoin is bad because it uses energy. What is the energy cost of printing, transporting and securing any currency in the world? The energy use of ATM's, banks, armed guards, data centers, computers, heating, cooling etc.? And as Nut pointed out, what percentage of the defense budget goes to securing the all mighty dollar?
Roughly 70% of the energy used by Bitcoin is renewable energy with most of that coming from hydro. The amount of hydro energy wasted is staggering because it is uneconomical to transport large distances and the supply often exceeds demand. Bitcoin helps solve that problem by using energy that would normally be wasted and actually stores the value of the energy so that it can be easily transported.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2018 - 12:19pm PT
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Again, mostly irrelevant. And no, most of the energy for bitcoin is not coming from renewable sources and further, miners have been pulling all kinds of shenanigans on unsophisticated and unsuspecting power utilities across the country.
Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ suck up electricity, stress power grids in Central Washington
P.S. How did you come to this conclusion?
The amount of hydro energy wasted is staggering because it is uneconomical to transport large distances and the supply often exceeds demand.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Dec 14, 2018 - 01:58pm PT
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Actually, yes, most energy is coming from renewable sources, mainly hydro. . Have you seen where all the major mining operations are? Not too tough to figure out what they are using for an energy source.
Don't blame Bitcoin miners if the utilities are unsophisticated and unsuspecting as you say. If the miners did something illegal, then get rid of them. Otherwise tough. The utilities are in the business of producing and selling energy. They are not complete idiots.
I'll try to clarify my energy waste comment. Many dams don't have enough local demand to allow them to run at or near capacity. To try to fill that gap, they transport electricity. Except that becomes more expensive and more uneconomical the farther you go, so that can only fill the gap so much. If dams are not capturing the energy potential, that is waste. According to the International Renewable Energy Agency, form 2010-2016, global hydro capacity was 49%. So yes, a lot of energy is being wasted.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2018 - 02:13pm PT
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Well, our hyrdo is powering you down there and the costs of transmission are not "expensive" - the nation's transmission infrastructure is what it is and it costs what it costs regardless of the power source.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 14, 2018 - 02:32pm PT
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When you pay your electric bill you are paying an energy component and a distribution and transmission component. Here in San Diego it is split 50-50 between them. Retail power at the lowest tier is around 30 cents a kWh, wholesale it is around 4 cents a kWh.
A Google server farm uses around 80Mw of power, that is a significant portion of the output of a power plant. I understand that they build them next to power plants so they get choice rates and less distribution losses. System inefficiency amounts to losses of 8-15%.
The best rates will be directly at the source.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Dec 14, 2018 - 03:27pm PT
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Well put Jon. Thanks.
Healyj, the transmission loss of High Voltage Direct Current (HVDC) is 3% per 1000km. For High Voltage Alternating Current (HVAC) is 7 % per 1000km. So yes, it does get "expensive" to transfer electricity long distances. And as Jon confirmed, electricity is cheaper at the source. So no, it doesn't just "cost what it costs regardless of source"
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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A greedy sucker is born every minute - zero sympathy.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Any worthwhile exchange would have multi-sig wallets which would require several people out of a group of authorized signers to sign their keys to a wallet to move any significant amount of Bitcoin. The fact that only one person had access to the exchange funds is highly suspicious. It is more likely an exit scam than incompetence. That being said, stop leaving your Bitcoin where shenanigans like this can happen. Not your keys, not your Bitcoin.
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Bargainhunter
climber
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I wonder if he faked his on death? Watch the blockchain for a cashout.
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JBoone
Social climber
NC
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Random tax fact.
Crypto miners, even individuals, are subject to ordinary tax rates plus self employment tax to boot (on mined bitcoin).
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Crypto miners, even individuals, are subject to ordinary tax rates plus self employment tax to boot (on mined bitcoin).
maybe or maybe not, the statement is an over simplification, when in fact it is far more nuanced.
If mining is a hobby then no self employment tax.
Does a landlord have to pay self employment tax on rental income?
Only if the rental is a business, begs the question when does it become a business?
Does a gambler have to pay self employment taxes on net winnings?
Only if you are a professional gambler, whatever that is
Any smart miner is going to mine the bitcoin as a separate entity such as a corporation and eventually cash out as capital gains scam at a lower rate.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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Another take on Bitcoin:
I believe that anyone that has held Bitcoin since it's inception in 2009, for at least 3 years, has multi X'd their money. Even now, if you had bought it 2 years ago and held until today you would have tripled your money.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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That says nothing unless you are one of the lucky few. I would wager good money that
most people have lost money. And if you put more than a few percent of yer net worth into
it you were gambling, not investing. Well, it doesn’t matter how much you put in, it was
still gambling.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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That says nothing unless you are one of the lucky few. I would wager good money that
most people have lost money. And if you put more than a few percent of yer net worth into
it you were gambling, not investing. Well, it doesn’t matter how much you put in, it was
still gambling.
Most types of investing are gambling to one degree or another. Saying that buying Bitcoin is just gambling and bad, while much of what goes on in Wall Street is "investing" and good, is disingenuous at best.
There are more than the lucky few. There has been(and still is) plenty of opportunity to make money in Bitcoin. The Bull/Bear cycles have made it quite simple, you just need to not be a moron. This scenario has played out several times in my years in Bitcoin:
Bear Market
Me- You should consider buying some Bitcoin
Friend- No way, its a scam.
Top of Bull Market
Friend- I'm thinking of buying some Bitcoin, can you help me?
Me- Don't be stupid. Not now. Wait.
Friend buys Bitcoin anyway.
Bear market
Me- Now would be a good time to buy some Bitcoin.
Friend- No way. Its a scam. I got wrecked last time.
New ATH for Bitcoin
Friend- I'm thinking of buying some Bitcoin.
Me- Face palm.
Friend- FU. You just got lucky.
Me- Yep, its just luck.
A greedy sucker is born every minute - zero sympathy.
Why do you invest in anything? To make money of course. Why do people invest in Bitcoin? Many do because they believe in the philosophy and technology behind it and of course because they hope to make money.
Why is your pursuit of gains ok yet the person who chose to invest Bitcoin a greedy sucker?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Why is your pursuit of gains ok yet the person who chose to invest Bitcoin a greedy sucker?
Who said anything remotely close to that? A sacrosanct law of ‘investing’ is that you NEVER put more than 5% of your ante in any one thang, unless you’re comfortable with losing it. I aver that a lot of those into Bitcoin are in for over 5%. If you don’t know about the 5% Rule then you’re not an investor.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Who said anything remotely close to that?
You did. You responded to stevep post about investors possibly losing their funds from a Canadian Bitcoin exchange. You said you had no sympathy for them and called them greedy suckers. You have no idea how much of their portfolios they allocated to investing in Bitcoin. Your constant attempts to portray Bitcoin investors as greedy gamblers is akin to your average touron thinking climbers are just adrenaline junkies.
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