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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Christian ultra-fundamentalism (CUF)
http://skepdic.com/ultrafundamentalism.html
A term used by psychologist and educator Robert J. Marzano (1993/1994) to describe the worldview of certain American Christians. CUF considers the Bible a sacred text and considers stories such as Noah and his ark to be literally true. CUF is well-known in America for its views that homosexuality and abortion, among many other things having to do with sex or reproduction, are sins (forbidden by the god of Abraham [AG]). The CUF folks and their sympathizers have a very well-organized political network, including schools, television networks, and radio stations for getting the message out to the masses and lawmakers. The movement has had some success in affecting legislation that restricts abortions, protects fetuses, and limits scientific research involving stem cells or human embryos. They have also had some success in getting elected to local school boards where they can influence textbooks and curricula (Simonds 1983; Forrest and Gross 2003).
CUF shares in common with ultra-fundamentalist Jews, Muslims, and Hindus the establishment of theocracy as the ultimate goal. One of the key features of Christian ultra-fundamentalism is that all other worldviews are seen as enemies to be extinguished or at least stopped from spreading (Marzano 1993/1994). There is no secular worldview that holds a similar position, with the possible exception of extreme communism. But other ultra-fundamentalist religious movements also seek the annihilation of opposing worldviews. Some of these groups, such as Islamic ultra-fundamentalists, seek to physically extinguish those of other religions or cultures, or even members of their own religion who are deemed not orthodox enough.* With the exception of a few terrorists who have attacked or murdered people for their abortion-related activities, CUF seems to advocate non-violent tactics. However, were a group of CUFs ever to hold political power in America, they undoubtedly would be just as intolerant as Islam has been toward democracy, liberty, human rights, pluralism, and all those values held precious by freedom-loving people.*
The CUF worldview is also characterized by the belief that America was established as a Christian nation (Gabler and Gabler 1985) with a global mission of evangelization (Saperstein 1990) and that liberal intellectuals have misled America into thinking that there should be a separation of Church and State
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Rationalist.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Happiness: The most secular nations in the world report the highest levels of happiness among their population.
Altruism: Secular nations such as those in Scandinavia donate the most money and supportive aid, per capita, to poorer nations. Zuckerman also reports that two studies show that, during the Holocaust, "the more secular people were, the more likely they were to rescue and help persecuted Jews."
Outlooks and Values: Zuckerman, citing numerous studies, shows that atheists and agnostics, when compared to religious people, are actually less likely to be nationalistic, racist, anti-Semitic, dogmatic, ethnocentric, and authoritarian. Secularism also correlates to higher education levels. Atheists and other secular people are also much more likely to support women's rights and gender equality, as well as gay and lesbian rights. Religious individuals are more likely to support government use of torture.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2016 - 09:18pm PT
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Do you believe that someone who leads a good and virtuous life, but never accepts Jesus as his "savior", is diminished in the eyes of God? I believe that anyone who rejects the love and forgiveness of Jesus will not spend eternity with God (John 14:6). Where it gets tricky is when people have never been specifically told about Jesus. I covered this in more detail in other posts, but basically I believe that nobody has an excuse and God provides the opportunity to know him to everyone, and the sacrifice of Jesus covers the sins of the whole world (Romans 1:20, 1st John 2:2). I do not believe that simply being not that bad of a person for our short stay on earth is as important as many people do because I have an eternal perspective and I believe our purpose is to have a relationship with God, not simply to do more good than bad, though that should be the result of knowing Jesus (James 4:13-16).
Here's my question to a Christian:
How can you rationalize the genocide perpetuated by your brethren over the millennia in the name of Jesus and your God? How do you justify the destruction of entire native cultures across the Pacific Ocean, South America, Central America and North America in the name of Jesus and your God? How do you justify the continuing vilification of other religions which are no more hypocritical and murderous than yours?
Why, after all that, do you wholeheartedly respect the bible and the preachers who use it, and yourselves, as a tool to perpetuate their mission? I'll try those one at a time.
-I do not attempt to justify or rationalize the terrible things that some people do. I hope and pray that people will follow the teachings of Jesus and have compassion and love for everyone (Matthew 5:44). It's unfortunate that so many people do not.
-Again, I do not try to justify the destruction of people or cultures (with the caveat that JEleazarian mentioned that when a culture does terrible things, it doesn't need to be preserved). I do believe that our purpose here on earth is to know and love Jesus and that if anyone believes that then they should share it with people if they care about them (Matthew 28:16-20).
-I do not try to justify the vilification of anyone, but do try to promote the love and forgiveness of Jesus (Matthew 5:44).
-I do wholeheartedly respect the Bible, but not necessarily the people who use is as a tool for anything other than the message of God and his plan for us.
"I believe a Christian is someone who has faith in Jesus in their heart"
Since we know quite certainly that hearts pump blood and no surgeon yet has found Jesus to be living in it, how come Christianity in the 21st century continues to insist on so many euphemisms? It would help therefore if we started off discussions using the same language.
Conversely then, why not explain that my "thoughts" that momentarily take place in my brain, concerning my beliefs in god's son, determine my eternal salvation or damnation?
I never thought about that, but I see your point. I believe that humans have a soul/spirit, and that is the part of us that is eternal. I think that's what is often referred to as our "heart" (Psalms 34:18).
Because I believe that our relationship and faith in Jesus is what determines the fate of our souls, I guess the mind and spirit are sort of inseparable. Basically, if you believe the Gospel and trust the Lord, I believe that your spirit is sealed (Ephesians 1:13 says pretty much exactly that). I suppose I don't know how you can have a relationship without your mind.
Do Christians care what Christian Scholars reveal in their scientific research? Speaking only for myself, yes. But I also spend a LOT of time reading about the research, both for and against my preconceived notions and beliefs. It's easy to spend hours and hours reading the back and forth on many things, and I try to do that when making decisions.
Didn't Jackson Brown cruise the entire Rt.66 with his gas tank completely empty or did that turn out to be hoax?
No idea what you're talking about, but I wish I could do that. It'd save a lot of money!
100,000,000 million planets with life of some sort Hey, you form beliefs based on faith too! :)
When I studied philosophy at a theological seminar, there were always a few people who were, for the lack of a better term, touched by the "holy spirit," and lived with a grace and fearlessness denied to those clinging to doctrine. People who tried to embody the spirit of the Song of Songs, and were transformed in the process. None of them could ever tell you how it all "worked," because it was not a process they could reverse engineer back to an object. All all had the profound sense of encountering some reality greater than themselves, and which had nothing to do with objects.
The entire business about the "Holy Spirit" is a fascinating investigation. I'd be curious to hear personal accounts about this that are not bound by scripture or Jesus-speak. Interesting post, John. No doubt that experiencing the Holy Spirit is part of my faith. It's only my tendency to research everything that leads me to analyze my beliefs and have reasons for them. As to personal accounts of being touched by the Holy Spirit, I know what this is like but don't think I can do it any justice with an explanation. It has brought tears, laughter, guidance, joy and everything in between when I am close to Jesus, with the Holy Spirit, where I believe I belong. Trying to describe it to someone who hasn't shared the experience would be like trying to describe an amazing climb to someone who has never seen a mountain, or a steak dinner to someone living in hunger, or holding your child while he/she sleeps to someone without children. Maybe those are poor analogies, but either way, the life changing experience and emotion is easily dismissed by people who have not lived it.
The people who life in this space, as opposed to the "religious" people endlessly debating, are an inspiration and you know it when you meet them, like you say.
Craig Fry
If you have a question I'd be happy to answer, Craig. I am familiar with the fact that people disagree and some people use Christianity for political purposes.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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The question is:
Why believe the resurrection story when it can not be possibly true.
Christian scholars do not agree that it ever took place, so isn't the most plausible explanation true, that jesus did not come back alive, and to say he did is just an exercise in perpetuating an ancient pagan myth that was used to draw in believers
What evidence do we have of an afterlife?
How does it all work up there?
Scientifically speaking, keeping track of all the dead people in the after life would be like impossible times infinity.
It seems to be completely made up by man.
The ultimate prize, an rewarding afterlife.
Why should I buy it?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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My sense of this is that people don't want to talk about religion as an existential phenomenon - meaning how religion is carried internally - but just want to bicker about doctrine, if it's "true" or not. True = doctrine. Lord...
Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice, a style of living, and what you get out of it is proof enough.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Largo just described real Christianity in a nutshell ......
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I was going to try to say something about how the Holy Spirit has touched me, and what he has done for me, but I really had no idea what to say or how to begin, except "I don't get it". But in spite of not getting it, I can't deny my own experiences, which I couldn't begin to explain anyway.
I cannot fathom many of the mysteries of God - his Holy Spirit being one of the biggies - so sometimes I just kind of sit in awe and think, wow, God's so The Sh|t. Kind of like I sometimes stare at El Cap and think the same thing. God made one fine hunk of stone there, him and the glaciers.
And I'm not trying to be patronizing or dismissive regarding the Holy Spirit, I just don't know how to explain. And if I tried, you might think I'm batshit crazy anyway.
So I will give a +1 to what Daniel writes above regarding HS.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice, a style of living, and what you get out of it is proof enough.
One step from being a Quaker...
Although a general acceptance of the possibility of a supreme being is encouraged.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice, a style of living, and what you get out of it is proof enough.
This is pretty much the way I view it. I consider myself agnostic, but I also believe that if people merely followed the actual historically verifiable teachings of Jesus, minus the miracles, embellishments, etc., the world would be a better place.
Curt
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2016 - 11:36pm PT
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The question is:
Why believe the resurrection story when it can not be possibly true. I guess we're starting with different assumptions so I don't know what I can say.
Christian scholars do not agree that it ever took place, so isn't the most plausible explanation true, that jesus did not come back alive, and to say he did is just an exercise in perpetuating an ancient pagan myth that was used to draw in believers I don't believe that a few dissenters would qualify this statement as accurate.
What evidence do we have of an afterlife? Aside from what I've learned from the Bible, none.
How does it all work up there? I can't even imagine (1st Corinthians 2:9)
It seems to be completely made up by man.
The ultimate prize, an rewarding afterlife.
Why should I buy it?
Because Jesus loves. I don't think I can convince anyone with arguments or logic (1st Corinthians 1:21).
My sense of this is that people don't want to talk about religion as an existential phenomenon - meaning how religion is carried internally - but just want to bicker about doctrine, if it's "true" or not. True = doctrine. Lord...
Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice, a style of living, and what you get out of it is proof enough. I would love to talk about any of it, but I am just answering questions. I hope in doing so I'm not diluting the point that what you get out of it is indeed proof enough (John 13:35). I like the way you think, although I personally think that beliefs are still part of the process (John 6:47).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Here's the very short version of a very long, multi-year story. I believe abiogenesis requires more faith than faith in God.
Hmmm. Life is here so I don't find abiogenesis terribly far-fetched even if we don't understand it. God vs. zeus vs. the tooth fairy vs. Santa Claus on the other hand I'm pretty clear on.
Not to mention how many biochemical mechanisms are lacking from macroevolution theory.
Which would those be?
I believe that anyone who rejects the love and forgiveness of Jesus will not spend eternity with God (John 14:6).
If there was ever something I'm counting on, it's this...
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Blather
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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some people use Christianity for political purpose
some aka most rulers in the middle ages?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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It's just silly to expect secular or non believers to be interested in how faith can be carried internally with no explanation of doctrine, the Bible, or historical evidence.
The Bible we can see and read, the evidence of wrongs perpetrated on others in the name of God we can see, the wearing of big hats and condemning others we can see. Religious people damn well better be prepared to answer some questions about that stuff or they're not getting anywhere with the rest of us.
Edit:
Limpingcrab, that's not directed at you. In other words, Largo, I don't think you're a Christian in the way Christians think of Christians at all. I don't believe you condemn gays, or have really strong opinions about Israel being Gods chosen people, or the anti-christ etc. Do you even believe in heaven and hell, sitting near gods right hand or burning eternally in lakes of fire?
So no Werner, he did not just explain Christianity in a nutshell.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Why not just admit that it all happens inside your own mind.
And God doesn't have anything to do with it.
You, yourself are the spiritual entity that when tapped is the source of love, inspiration and what not.
It doesn't come from the outside, never has.
and animals have these gifts as well, humans evolved from animals
Humans are not alone as the chosen ones that are special.
But we are at the top of the known universe when it comes to the highest mind, there is nothing higher, no Gods, no spirit floating about, no Satan keeping you down.
Only you can save yourself,
many people have saved themselves, but were delusional of where the power came from, they needed to believe it came from the outside, yet it was them alone, with just the power of belief that made it happen.
Unfortunately, once the body dies, the mind dies with it.
There is no spirit without the flesh that supports it.
This is true atheism,
agnosticism is just a cop out in my mind, maybe this maybe that, can't be sure if there is something controlling the universe or not??
No, there is nothing out there, it's all about nothingness when you look outside yourself, Largo will agree here.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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When you're dead, you don't even know that you're dead. There is just pain for others.
Same thing when you are stupid.
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WBraun
climber
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You don't even know what dead is nor what life is.
Stooopist bullsh!t ever is modern science idiots saying life comes for non life matter.
Life comes from life and life is eternal ......
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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It's just silly to expect secular or non believers to be interested in how faith can be carried internally with no explanation of doctrine, the Bible, or historical evidence.
----
I wasn't directing my inquiry to non-believers, but what makes it "silly" to you? And so far as an "explanation, do you mean an interpretation in terms of historic accuracy of miracles, or a deeper understanding of the existential truths experienced from practice? If you took the heart and soul of the Pauline letters, and used that as a guide, minus any explanation about what they "mean," and ignoring all "evidence," rather you simply tried to live it, what do suppose would happen.
Any time I see the focus on doctrine over existential truth, I wonder what the person is hoping to reap from their religion - a spiritual existence, or to be right about a bunch of equivocal history.
What might happen if just for one day beliefs and doctrine were set aside and you just sat in the heart of it?
JL
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Where it gets tricky is when people have never been specifically told about Jesus.
Well, why doesn't your god just tell them? Why does he feel the need to f*#k with people?
This is why I left the Methodists, when the pastor told me people like the Tassaday who'd never had any contact with the outside world were going to hell.
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