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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 23, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
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You can endlessly argue about the traditions of the South, racism, flag symbolism, but the overriding concern in regards to Murder of Black's is the hugely disproportional amounts killing each other.
yes, your statistics are spot on
but isn't the point that this Charleston murder was purely white racism, versus the black
on black murders you point out are not racism but seemingly strongly related to high concentrations of the same race people, black, living in very close proximity and virtually all in poverty.
Or is there a point you are making that i am missing that is relating black on black murder rates to this single act of white racism?
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 23, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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How would you account for the disproportion in murder and violent crime rates? I would guess (without doing the research) that there are other disproportionate statistics in the areas of poverty, education, and gang participation as well. The question is what to do about it?
This individual crime was racially motivated. And it was committed with a firearm. So, those two things are primary subjects here. The questions being how to reduce racism and how to reduce access to guns for people like the perp?
Technically, due to the recent drug arrest and pending court case, he should have been legally prohibited from buying a firearm. I still think the racism part is a bigger issue, as it was his primary motivation for this; and it leads to so much more violence.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 23, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
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My only point is that this one Murder/Tragedy receives a disproportionate amount of publicity, while other, more significant causes of misery for the Black Community are largely brushed aside. Statistical reality doesn't sell news / entertainment, emotion does.
Spot on...
All the absurd emotional hand-wringing...
"What do we do, what do we do?" Let's pass more useless laws banning flags or guns for crazy people! Maybe we'll make it real explicit that murder is already illegal and have signs printed up to establish "MURDER FREE ZONES".
What do we do? We caught the guy and he either dies or doesn't ever see the light of day. Case closed.
And we go on worrying about things that matter.
You cannot and never will prevent crazy people from doing crazy things. The killer's "motivations" are irrelevant.
Meantime probably 40 gang-bangers have probably killed each other over drug turf as they do every week in our urban kill zones. Maybe worry about that and trying to understand the causation there...
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 23, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
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Technically, due to the recent drug arrest and pending court case, he should have been legally prohibited from buying a firearm
true, but there also is no universal background checks required for private purchases,
so all he had to do was pick up the local newspaper and buy a gun, legally
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 23, 2015 - 01:11pm PT
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I fail to see how the statistical apportionment of murder rates by race has anything to do with the subject at hand.
My only point is that this one Murder/Tragedy receives a disproportionate amount of publicity, while other, more significant causes of misery for the Black Community are largely brushed aside. Statistical reality doesn't sell news / entertainment, emotion does.
DMT, the question is why is white on black murder the only "subject at hand," when black on black murder is so much bigger a problem? The concern is not that we are spending conern and effort on this obviously racist murder, but that we spend too little time on the much bigger problem of black on black murder. Already, some have offered some explanations (poverty, education, etc.) for the latter, and those are good places to look.
To me another issue could be why Charleston reacted to white on black killing by coming peacefully together, while other places reacted by detroying their own communities.
Although the overriding cause of the Charleston massacre is clearly white racism by the perpetrator, observation suggests other issues as well. In that sense, I particularly admire Norton's posts on this thread, because he recognizes that the lack of a perfect response does not preclude an optimal response, and he suggests options whose efficacy we can test. We may have different views of the world, but his reasoning and methodology on this issue coincide with mine, even if our suggested solutions may differ.
John
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Jun 23, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
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I will take some milk with my toast.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 23, 2015 - 01:18pm PT
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true, but there also is no universal background checks required for private purchases,
so all he had to do was pick up the local newspaper and buy a gun, legally
That doesn't make it legal. From the seller's standpoint, yes. The perp, however, is still a prohibited person.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 23, 2015 - 01:25pm PT
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That doesn't make it legal. From the seller's standpoint, yes. The perp, however, is still a prohibited person.
I agree, but the purpose of background checks isn't to increase the category of illegal purchasers, but to make it possible to determine if the purchaser has a legal right to do so.
John
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Jun 23, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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http://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/Reflections/LinWar.html
"In the twentieth century, this critical view of Lincoln's actions gained a wide audience through the writings of Charles W. Ramsdell and others. According to Ramsdell, the situation at Sumter presented Lincoln with a series of dilemmas. If he took action to maintain the fort, he would lose the border South and a large segment of northern opinion which wanted to conciliate the South. If he abandoned the fort, he jeopardized the Union by legitimizing the Confederacy. Lincoln also hazarded losing the support of a substantial portion of his own Republican Party, and risked appearing a weak and ineffective leader.
Lincoln could escape these predicaments, however, if he could induce southerners to attack Sumter, "to assume the aggressive and thus put themselves in the wrong in the eyes of the North and of the world." By sending a relief expedition, ostensibly to provide bread to a hungry garrison, Lincoln turned the tables on the Confederates, forcing them to choose whether to permit the fort to be strengthened, or to act as the aggressor. By this "astute strategy," Lincoln maneuvered the South into firing the first shot."
Lincoln knew exactly what he was doing. The repubs don't exalt him for nothing!
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 23, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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That doesn't make it legal. From the seller's standpoint, yes. The perp, however, is still a prohibited person.
true, but as been pointed out countless times, illegally motivated people do not care
a twit about "laws"
and in addition to what JohnE said another purpose of background checks or even laws
in general is to provide the state with the legal framework to both charge and prosecute,
in these cases to hold publicly responsible those who knowingly sell firearms to others,
without verifying the potential buyer's legal status to purchase
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 23, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
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Curious that a law needs passing to pull down a flag nobody wants flying anymore.
That tells me there must be some law requiring that flag be flown.
Who's responsible for that law? Which governor signed that?
I guarantee it hasn't flown continuously since the Civil War - no way that flag was kosher during Reconstruction.
That means somebody thought it was a good idea to bring it back. It'd be good to know who that somebody is.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Jun 23, 2015 - 01:57pm PT
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Of course it was not flown during reconstruction. It could have meant immediate extermination. There were Massachusetts soldiers that advocated genocide. They said the south would never be right until all the southern people were exterminated. Damn what a lot I have inherited! Oh well, the one thing we seem to do well is fight......in spite of what you blue bellies think. Jack Hinson sure put it to you bitches!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 23, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
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^Who is Jack Hinson?
The flag flying began in the early sixties in response to the Civil rights movement in the south. I believe an elected official in S. Carolina stated the year as 1962, but I'm not sure.
EDIT: Apparently Hinson was a sniper whose kids were killed and had their heads implanted on poles at his house. The claim is that he was neutral at the beginning of the war, but had a change of heart.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 23, 2015 - 02:06pm PT
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Caveman:
In 1859 would you have objected to receiving market value for each slave you owned? Knowing full well they had no other place to go and you might even have been relieved of the need to make adequate food available?
What a deal!
The onus would then have been put on the North to pony up the money to give the slaves an option. The people with the superior principles would then have had the chance to put money where their mouth was. The North would have been maneuvered into subsidizing your labor cost.
What the Hell was that war really about? We think Viet Nam was an imponderable.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 23, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
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^Hinson
True, but you kinda of wonder when someone is randomly thrown into the mix 150 years later, doncha?
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Jun 23, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
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"What the Hell was that war really about?"
Tariffs, control, lowland english vs celtic hoard, Braveheart vs King Edward, fences, no trespassing signs, taxes, coming up with the idea of secession then jumping the south for the audacity to actually do it. Im sure that whatever happened in the south the southerners considered it their business and wanted no help from the north. I used to ask myself why the south would fight to keep their slaves. Hell, die in the hundreds of thousands. Well the answer is not nearly as easy as "we are all evil".
Jstan If I had slaves I would feel obligated to care for them. Do unto others. My guess is that had I been around then I would not own slaves. I would be in the south though. I've been up north, they don't have enough heat and humidity!
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 23, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
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Dylann Roof is a Devout Conservative Christian
His Manifesto sites that his inspiration is from the Council Of Conservative Citizens, A CONSERVATIVE Christian Group that want America to become a Christian Theocracy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/06/22/the-odd-political-success-of-the-white-supremacist-council-of-conservative-citizens-explained/
Here's a brief history of the Council of Conservative Citizens.
Born of school desegregation
The nationwide council wasn't formed until 1985, but it has roots in the school desegregation era. It was started by officials of the White Citizens Council, a 1950s southern group that sprang up to oppose the Supreme Court-mandated desegregation of public schools.
Gordon Baum was one such White Citizens Council official to help form this new council. The Missouri personal injury lawyer sought support for his new group via mailing lists from the White Citizens Council.
Many of these neo-Confederate groups, the CCC included, derive their ideology from even further back in American history, Hague wrote. They (inaccurately) believe the Civil War was fought not over slavery but for the future of American Christianity. The groups' leaders share 19th-century theological writings making a biblical justification for slavery and segregation.
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"Neo-Confederacy is an active and ongoing attempt to reshape the United States in the Old South's image," Hague wrote in an essay published on the Southern Poverty Law Center Web site.
Groups like the CCC advocate a return to Christian values they say call for homogeneous societies.
"We believe that the United States of America is a Christian country, that its people are a Christian people, and that its government and public leaders at all levels must reflect Christian beliefs and values," the group's statement of values reads. "We therefore oppose all efforts to deny or weaken the Christian heritage of the United States."
This council eventually grew to about 15,000 members, mostly in the Deep South. Hague says many of the people who lead these types of neo-Confederate groups are intellectuals -- lawyers, professors, pastors and community leaders -- who skilfully spin history to match their beliefs. Even movies like "Braveheart" are interpreted by white supremacists "as mirror images of their own struggles," Hague wrote.
Segregation is a Christian value according to them.
I'm sure Dylann Roof is a Republican as well, since he considers himself to be Conservative.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Jun 23, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
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^^^^...as astute an assessment as who is an Obama voter.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 23, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
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"You know neither me, nor My Father. If you knew Me you would know My Father also."
-either Jack Hinson or Mike Hynson
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 23, 2015 - 02:43pm PT
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Interesting observations, as usual, jstan. Sad to say, I wonder if we aren't reenacting that failure to put our money where our mouths are in the current situation. We all decry racism, but few want to spend anything of our own to fix it, or to deal with what appears to be intractible problems of poverty.
I remember when Tom Higgins joined VISTA. Young idiot that I was, I thought, "Wow! They pay him enough to buy a Porsche. Pretty cool." I never thought about his opportunity cost in doing something tangible to try to help.
Most of us on this thread see the obvious racism involved in the Charleston attack (is there anyone who doesn't?), but our solutions all seem to involve someone else paying to fix it.
John
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