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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 10:36am PT
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Offensivie on what basis though?
Challenge yourself bubbles: distinguish between race (or child exploitation, in your eg) and ideology (in this case archaic religious ideology that's in sore need of an overhaul). They are world's apart, it's easy.
"You got this."
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jan 15, 2015 - 11:12am PT
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Offensivie on what basis though?
Challenge yourself bubbles: distinguish between race (or child exploitation, in your eg) and ideology (in this case archaic religious ideology that's in sore need of an overhaul). They are world's apart, it's easy.
Not to people of faith. For most devout believers, their faith central to who they are. It's their core.
When someone mocks their faith, especially in a way that's intentionally malicious, it's as offensive as racist cartoons of the Jim Crow era. Many liberals don't recognize the similarity.
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LearningTrad
Trad climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 11:21am PT
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EdwardT, if you honestly can't draw a reasonable distinction, between how a human being is born, and what sky wizard they choose to believe in, we can't have a rational and adult discussion.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jan 15, 2015 - 11:34am PT
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Trad, people are not rational beings.
Edward is totally correct. Many people's faith is very central to who they are and no more changeable than their skin color.
So the question is always why there's no extreme outrage by 99% normal non-psychotic "Muslim Community" over the newspaper thing.
If you were a poor black in the 60's how hard would you be expressing outrage over the killings of KKK members?
Faith is something I sure will never understand but that doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't ridicule someone who has it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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Per usual, fear, you don't draw out (ie, unpack) the various issues in play that make up this mess. For instance, you and EdwardT are so VERY RIGHT about this one...
"For most devout believers, their faith central to who they are. It's their core."
So you guys should / could pause here and go take it up with the far left liberal loons (not all the lib loons but many of them) who think Islamic religion (faith) has nothing to do with the events and behaviors (the bruhaha) going on the Middle East; instead, to their lights (lol), it's all about politics and profiteering.
Further,
"Edward is totally correct."
As far as the statement goes, yes, but it's off-track relative to the essentials of the discussion. The issue essential to problem solving here is the lack of distinction between race, which isn't changeable (or child exploitation per previous eg) and an archaic, bronze-age founded, baseless ideology that is correctable with basic education and emancipation from religious superstition.
My claim, per my earlier post, is that the TWO were "world's apart." Indeed they are when education / enlightenment are brought to bear in the problem solving. An archaic religious ideology can be changed, it can be updated, with higher education. In this way, it's a choice involving decision-making, effort, discipline and training; race in contrast is not. So they ARE "world's apart" in regard to strategizing solutions to their associative problems.
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LearningTrad
Trad climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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Hey fear, I agree with you some people are not rational. Trust me, I get that.
Should we strive to live in a less-rational world just because there exists an irrational portion of the population? Or, should we strive to live by laws and mores that follow logic?
I don't think anything is beyond ridicule, including faith. Or grown men taking selfies. Or rap-bolting (LOL). Ridicule often brings contemplation, or introspection, which is a positive thing. At least, it often brings it for the rational.
The radically irrational? Do we really need those people, or better yet, that mindset? People can stay. Minds can change.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jan 15, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
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EdwardT, if you honestly can't draw a reasonable distinction, between how a human being is born, and what sky wizard they choose to believe in, we can't have a rational and adult discussion.
And if you're going continue distorting my posts, I doubt we can have an adult conversation, either.
My post was not about me. It was devout believers.
On a tangential note, many non-believers seem to think people of faith are superstitious, contemptible, uneducated idiots.
To those who hold that view, what is your opinion of Pope Francis, Mother Teresa and President Jimmy Carter?
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LearningTrad
Trad climber
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Jan 15, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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[Quote]And if you're going continue distorting my posts, I doubt we can have an adult conversation.
My post was not about me. It was devout believers.[/Quote]
EdwardT, perhaps I should have expanded. The nature of your post, is to give validity to the devout mindset/behavior and subsequent taking of offense. I guess I interpreted your description of the way devout believers think, with no opinion on it either way, as your endorsement of it. Or better, your rationalization of it.
I'm pretty sure we all understand the gist of how faith works, but thanks for explaining it I guess?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 15, 2015 - 12:45pm PT
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Your information is in error. The Secretary of defense called and asked Rev. Terry to cancel the koran burning event - he did the first time, but continued to burn korans after that, despite requests by top US military officials not to.
He was not arrested not for burning - lawful behavior protected under the 1st Amendment. A prohibition would constitute a blatant violation of the establishment clause, as well as an unlawful prohibition of political speech.
Police arrested Jones on September 11, 2013, before he could burn 2,998 Korans soaked with kerosene at a park in Polk County, Florida. He was charged with unlawfully conveying fuel and openly carrying a firearm.[61]
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 15, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
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This is precisely what censorship looks like. "Gratuitous and vulgar". In whose eyes?
Not mine. Many of Hebdo's cartoons were spot on in their criticisms in my view.
And there in lies the rub - who decides?
Offense is the responsibility of the offended - it's a choice to be so or not.
If you're offended by something - from gay marriage to cartoons - move on and don't participate. Don't get gay married, don't read Charlie Hebdo.
This is the only peaceful way forward in a world of 7 billion where anything offends someone somewhere.
I have to chuckle a bit at the cries of religious discrimination (which a cartoon cannot possibly effect) for religions that openly seek to and do oppress homosexuals and women with the rule of law.
One of these things...is not like the other.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 15, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
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Jan 15, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
This is precisely what censorship looks like. "Gratuitous and vulgar". In whose eyes?
Not mine. Many of Hebdo's cartoons were spot on in their criticisms in my view.
And there in lies the rub - who decides?
You don't have to be a great philosopist to figure out that a cartoon of the prophet naked and in a position to be butyf*#ked might be a bit over the top.
If that wasn't gratuitous and vulgar in your eyes, just exactly what is?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 15, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
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Pretty much nothing. From Baby Jesus Buttplugs to Amy Schumer - it's all fine with me.
Hey, religious people - if your faith is so strong - go do some good works with it or something. Seems like the thin skin thing indicates otherwise, however.
It's a choice.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 15, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
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Deciding to poke religious conservatives of any faith in the eye is a choice also.
Almost always there is a price for choices. Recognize that.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 15, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
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I can understand why there's so much support for censorship in America - given the American national ego and it's ultra thin skin.
I remember very clearly that any suggestion that America not invade Iraq, that we were about to make a mistake - were met with charges of hating one's on country and cowardice from the Let's Roll crowd.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 15, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
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In the end, this focus on insult is completely wide of the mark.
We should, instead, focus on the long, hard game of helping to stabilize those regions that allow these as#@&%es to operate - Yemen, sub Saharan Africa - etc. That means employment, some semblance of the rule of law and its enforcement, education. We should have a serious discussion about our drone program to determine if its doing more harm than good.
But that's not the discussion we want to have in America. We prefer the quick non-fix.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Jan 15, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
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Forty-eight hours after hosting a massive march under the banner of free expression, France opened a criminal investigation of a controversial French comedian for a Facebook post he wrote about the Charlie Hebdo attack, and then this morning, arrested him for that post on charges of “defending terrorism.” The comedian, Dieudonné (above), previously sought elective office in France on what he called an “anti-Zionist” platform, has had his show banned by numerous government officials in cities throughout France, and has been criminally prosecuted several times before for expressing ideas banned in that country.
It seems the French are looking at their own hate speech laws, which appear to severely limit exactly the sort of thing Charie Hebdo was doing.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_France
The hate speech laws in France are matters of both civil law and criminal law. Those laws protect individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted because they belong or do not belong, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, or a sexual orientation, or because they have a handicap. The laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, or a sexual orientation, or because he or she has a handicap.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 15, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
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Article in the LA Times yesterday about all the Jews that are leaving
France because of a resurgence of anti-Semitism. Strictly speaking
that can apply to Arabs as well, n'est ce pas?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jan 15, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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Pretty much nothing. From Baby Jesus Buttplugs to Amy Schumer - it's all fine with me.
You're okay with racist hate speech?
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