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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 29, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
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^^^thats NOT what the link I posted above said.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
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Just walk yourself through the Berkeley Evolution 101 course. It's quick, easy, and fun.
And it will answer in 30 minutes all the questions about evolution you've ever posted on ST far better than anyone here.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 29, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
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If Ra is, in fact, fiction, that fiction has to start somewhere.
True! And what you do not get to do is deny that the people, whoever they were, that started it did not exist.
In the case of Christianity, we have a record of who started it. There's no special reason to doubt that the record of who started it is in fact accurate. Yet, amazingly, people on this thread deny that the people who started it even existed. That's what is a non-starter.
Mmmm-yeah... got it now?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 29, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
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Convenient how they can't believe eyewitness accounts from 2k yro.
Yet they'll proclaim fact to the accounts 200-300 million yro.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Aug 29, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
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There's no special reason to believe that the record of who started it is true either. Considering the primary sources fail just about every conceivable test of credibility, it would be an enormous embarrassment if it turned out they were all just fabricated after the facts. But it's all just too big to fail, as they say.
And yeah, they're not eyewitness accounts, Blu. Not by a long shot.
To provide a good overview of the majority opinion about the Gospels, the Oxford Annotated Bible (a compilation of multiple scholars summarizing dominant scholarly trends for the last 150 years) states (pg. 1744):
“Neither the evangelists nor their first readers engaged in historical analysis. Their aim was to confirm Christian faith (Lk 1.4; Jn 20.31). Scholars generally agree that the Gospels were written forty to sixty years after the death of Jesus. They thus do not present eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus’ life and teachings.”
http://adversusapologetica.wordpress.com/2013/12/17/why-scholars-doubt-the-traditional-authors-of-the-gospels/
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
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"True! And what you do not get to do is deny that the people, whoever they were, that started it did not exist.
In the case of Christianity, we have a record of who started it. There's no special reason to doubt that the record of who started it is in fact accurate. Yet, amazingly, people on this thread deny that the people who started it even existed. That's what is a non-starter."
Yeeees, somebody started something sometime. We can't know whether it was apostles named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John though or someone else for lack of historical evidence. The Bible is not a historical record - and it doesn't agree with itself, anyway. You may research that as you wish. You won't, but you should, given the importance in your life of your belief.
Myths are created over time by many people and they take many forms that continually change. Christianity is no different there. Christianity may have had its early beginnings long before the supposed life of Christ - in previous, very similar mythology. We can't know for sure, really. Not enough evidence. We know there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Christian sects nowadays, all with widely different beliefs.
Oh right, only one version is legit. Yours, right?
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 29, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
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That's definitely not a Stephen Hawking quote.
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thebravecowboy
climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
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Aug 29, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 29, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
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Oh right, only one version is legit. Yours, right?
That kind of pot-shot most clearly reveals the "spirit" in which you both "argue" and seek for truth.
You know better than such a cheap shot, but that doesn't stop you from firing it. Thus, your own intellectual honesty (actually, lack thereof) is on full display.
Nuff said.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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True Christians.
Go figure!
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Aug 29, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
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When in doubt, try shaming. Always worth a shot.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
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It's impossible to say how, exactly, Christianity really got started, but we can say for sure how some successful modern religions were founded for insight.
There are 15 million Mormons. Mormonism was founded in 1830 by Joseph Smith, a 'money digger' who made his living by paying paid to dig (unsuccessfully) for buried treasure using a seer stone. Smith was raised by parents and grandparents who believed they had religious visions - a trait Smith also claimed to have. In one, an angel told him where to find the famous golden plates and the seer stones with which to translate them. A total of 12 people (himself, 3 of his business partners and 8 extended family members) claimed to have seen these plates before they mysteriously disappeared. Smith was run out of New York by a mob for his money digging scams, tarred and feathered in Ohio, and had to flee Missouri to escape bank fraud charges - to name a few colorful events in his life. Smith was eventually killed by an angry mob while in an Illinois jail after being charged with treason for attempting to declare his own martial law.
Scientology (about 40,000 members) provides another modern example of religious foundation. L. Ron Hubbard originally published its doctrine as a space opera - but incorporated his new church in 1953 based on that reworked text. One of the major tenets of Scientology is that a human is an immortal alien spiritual being, termed a thetan, that is presently trapped on planet Earth in a physical "meat body."
Scientology has come under fire in recent years for running camps where unpaid followers serve those higher up the religious food chain, in some cases, for decades. In 1979-80, 12 high level Scientologists, including Hubbard's wife, were jailed for the largest infiltration of the US government by a non-governmental organization in history. The church employed over 5000 agents to infiltrate 136 government organizations.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aug 29, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
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f*#k....
I thought someone was going to be offering to get rid of the religious (who can't keep it to themselves)....
instead its just another christians ain't so bad thread....
I still have no respect for someone just because they tell be they are a believer in one myth or another.....
I shouldn't expect respect for my deeply held beliefs of any imaginary anything...
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 06:30pm PT
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Well over 200 religions have been founded worldwide since Joseph Smith first published his Book of Mormon - more than one a year, on average.
Some, like Mormonism, survive to become popular. Some don't.
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Aug 29, 2014 - 07:28pm PT
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Bottom Line:
Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proofs
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 29, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
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Scrubbing bubbs..... opt for the enlargement procedure and they may flock back to worship the little nazi...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 29, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
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You know you could say that there are millions of new religions..
Every new Christian that comes into the fold, has different precepts than any other.
So you COULD call each one a new religion if you really wanted too.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 29, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
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I shouldn't expect respect for my deeply held beliefs of any imaginary anything...
LOL... nothing question-begging about that!
If you have a pain, that is EXACTLY as "imaginary" as somebody else's "talk with God."
It is impossible in principle to "objectively measure" your pain. Your self-reporting that you are in pain is as "real" as it can get for anybody outside of you.
And if you want to start talking about brain scans, etc., etc., I would respond that such scans denote that some activity is taking place and that many (not even close to all) people reporting pain have similar brain activity. But so what. That observed brain activity is not equivalent to your sensation of pain.
Furthermore, people praying (in "discussion with God") also have similar brain activity as measured by scans. Does that mean that they really are in discussion with God?
If you say, yes, then game over. If you say, no, then your supposed pain is just as "imaginary."
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 29, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
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Of course pain is imaginary. How else do you think morphine could work?
Sometimes amputees will have a sensation of a phantom limb. The sensation is very real, but the missing arm is not. And so it is with God.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 29, 2014 - 10:41pm PT
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Of course pain is imaginary.
Now we're getting somewhere. Of course, you haven't yet tumbled to the necessary implications of what you've just said.
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