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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Nov 20, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
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I'm all for free health care system for those who REALLY can't pay it. (Like someone with no arms and legs or someone who is so disabled they sh#t their pants most of the time) But that system would only cover the basic essentials and you'd see an RN instead of an MD and you'd sit in the waiting room forever and you might have to drive a long distance to get care. They certainly don't own a car so, Heavens to Murgatroyd, they might even have to find someone to drive them or take public transportation. This idea of "quality care" for everyone is BS. J.Shiloh's point below is valid. Anyone could be on this basic plan but, if it is determined you could pay for it, you would be required to do so. Others could choose whatever system they want.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Nov 20, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
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Yes, true, but the point is that you would not be forced to utilize that health care under my plan - it would be an option. If you wished to purchase private health care insurance and see a private physician, you would be perfect free to do so. I am advocating a public option not a mandate. I believe in choice; apparently Obama does not...
You're aware that Obama wanted a public option in the ACA, right?
Curt
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Nov 20, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
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Then how can you possibly say that Obama is not "for choice?"
Curt
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 20, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
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1 million off the price of any home as tax-exempt (if you live in CA that may not be enough but hey, life's tough these days) Here in the affluent (myself excluded) hills of Silli Valley $1million is plenty for a really good house.
Assuming you don't need 6 bedrooms, a 5 car air conditioned garage, an olympic sized pool with bathhouse and bar and a home entertainment system in every room. It'll even buy you a nice condo in Yuppified San Francisco.
The US spends 17% of GDP on healthcare. The next closest is France at about 12%.
Yet we are somewhere around 30th in measurable healthcare outcomes.
Silly measures such as infant mortality, life expectancy and many others.
Every major European "socialist" nation has significantly better results.
The current system is NOT delivering what it should, except huge profits for the insurers and specialist doctors.
Nurse wages are constantly being eroded, general practitioners are making less than in the past 50 years or so.
Repeat: we are NOT getting value for money with the current system. Not NEARLY. What part of that don't you Libertarian Free Marketers understand?
Sure the bureaucrats and techies dropped the ball. As has been pointed out, billions of $$ of DOD programs have been scrapped over the years. For that, No Big Deal.
Obamacare can be made to work in spite of the poison pills the Republitards forced into the legislation in exchange for their votes.
So let's get on with it and make it work.
Or do we totally lack the national will to do what's right?
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Nov 20, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
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As long as you have brought up that (raw) subject, I will add that if he made it clear that he would veto any bill which did not include a public option, it would be there today. Instead, he caved and pandered.
Utter nonsense. It was impossible to get the required 60 votes in the Senate without dropping the public option.
Curt
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 20, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
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Utter nonsense. It was impossible to get the required 60 votes in the Senate without dropping the public option. One of the many poison pills.
J.Shiloh (doubtfully LEB)
A consumption tax as you propose is by FAR the most regressive of all taxes. It's great for the wealthy, leaves them a very high proportion of their income to stash under the mattress. (yeah, yeah, that's a gross distortion and rather silly example).
I'm not going to bother to dig out the statistics, but the most prosperous times in the 20th century have been when the tax system was most "progressive". When the wealthy paid the highest income tax rates.
We can argue all day why that happens but the facts are indisputable.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Nov 20, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
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Medicare for ALL@!!!!!
You heard it here first!!!!
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 20, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
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I was exceedingly disappointed when the ACA came through and this option was absent.
Then why, Lois, do you vote for the Republicans that insisted it be removed from the bill?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 20, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
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Curt,
That is where leadership comes in. He needed to drive a harder bargain. You make too many excuses for failure. The opposition was coming primarily from the GOP and recall he had both houses at that time. You are being an apologist for him.
absurd
naive
simplistic view of how the individual Senators' dynamics were in play at the time
come back when you grow up
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 20, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
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recall he had both houses at that time. With 60 votes required to break a filibuster.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Nov 20, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
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The real problem at hand is that health care is " unaffordable" . Obamacare in its current state will prove to be even more unaffordable to the middle/working class.
Remove all the politard partisan BS and we simply need a system that is better than what we have now.
Unfortunately, it is going to take years to figure it all out and many that will not qualify for subsidies but live pay check to pay check are going to take a massive financial hit.
Again, it will come down to rent/food or health insurance premium for many. Many that were insured, will "choose" to go uninsured.
ACA shifts the burden to the middle/working class. In this economy, I am not sure it will work.
We need a health care fix but I do not believe ACA in its current form will be viewed as a success 5 years from now.
Commence politard partisan BS....................
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 20, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
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Unfortunately, it is going to take years to figure it all out and many that will not qualify for subsidies but live pay check to pay check are going to take a massive financial hit.
No, it won't. We know what needs to be done, we have examples world-wide, not to mention Medicare. We just need politicians who are willing to do what's right for America.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Nov 20, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
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Medicare for ALL@!!!!!
You heard it here first!!!!
You certainly weren't first, but I wholeheartedly agree.
Curt
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Nov 20, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
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No, it won't. We know what needs to be done, we have examples world-wide, not to mention Medicare. We just need politicians who are willing to do what's right for America.
Therein lies the problem. It certainly is not an impossible problem to fix. Show me a politician that wants to do what is right for the people rather than his/her own ego, special interest groups, lobbyist groups etc and they will have have my vote.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Nov 20, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
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and there is NO way YOU would vote for him, because he is a Democrat
and very clearly your personal ideology is highly "conservative", ie. voting Republican
now, if you were honest, you would ask: "show me a "Conservative" politician" that wants to do
do right etc etc etc
Verbal Diarrhea at its finest Norton
I don't see any evidence that burdens are being shifted onto the middle class. Maybe some in the upper-middle class, but certainly not the working class
I wish you were correct. So if you do not qualify for subsidies and make less than $100k per year and live in a high cost of living city/state, is $1200 per month not a burden? Working class is going to be hit in a huge way. Deny all you want until it impacts YOU.
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Malbrouck
climber
Houston, TX
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Nov 20, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
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Obamacare can be made to work in spite of the poison pills the Republitards forced into the legislation in exchange for their votes.
I have no dog in this fight but the above statement surprised me. I was under the impression from other sources that no Republican in either the House or Senate voted for the ACA, so I would have thought any poison pills in the legislation must have been forced in by reluctant Democrats.
Was there a Republican who voted for the ACA that I'm not aware of?
Asking out of genuine curiosity, not trying to get involved in the Team Blue/Team Red back-and-forth.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 20, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
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You are conveniently not talking about deductables and co-pays.
Again, as I've said repeatedly, I have first-hand experience with the realities of this in Colorado. Under ACA, premiums doubled, and that's for a (interestingly enough, "silver") "plan" with $5,000 per year (per person) deductable and 30% co-pay.
Contrast with the current plan that is $1,200 per year (per person) deductable and 0% to 20% co-pay (depending on the type of service provided).
I'm solidly "middle-class," as are my employees. Nothing approaching "upper middle-class" here!
All I can PERSONALLY see is that anything the ACA can do "for me" (and employees) is more than triple my annual costs for health care (assuming, of course, that I did have to spend out the deductibles).
So, the "poor" get subsidized, the wealthy are not proportionately tapped, and it IS the solidly middle class that get hammered by the ACA.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 20, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
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The real question for climbers is does Obamacare cover sheep born infections?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 20, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
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One thing that hasn't surfaced yet is what kind, if any out of pocket caps the Unaffordable Healthcare Tax has.
My "inferior" group plan (that goes away next year thanks to the Marxist in Chief), has a cap of 5k.
In other words for a single medical problem the deductible is caped at 5K and the insurance pays 100% after that.
I'll bet Obamacare has no such provision.
Just another,
Gotcha'
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 20, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
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What are those hard limits?
I know what mine are now.
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