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frank wyman
Mountain climber
montana
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Aug 15, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
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Madbolter I have been following your posts and they are very well thought out and reasonable, without the name calling and insults. Keep up the good work and don't let the ranting California Cuckolds get you down with their gun grabbing agenda..
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 15, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
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Thank you much, Frank. I really appreciated that note of encouragement.
Sadly, they do at times get me down... not because of the insults but because it does often seem that they are winning. America really is becoming something vastly and fundamentally different than what I "signed up for."
And it is not doing so in an intentional and principled way. It's just the pathetic decline of trajectory-inertia brought on by the increasing mass of "voters" that really have no clue (thanks in large part to our socialized educational system) about such simple but important distinctions as negative and positive rights, or libertarian vs. communitarian principles. So, sadly, the ultimate end does seem inevitable to me. But that's all "weepy," so I'll pick myself up and carry on. LOL
Small posts like yours give me some hope, because I know that there have to be lots of people like you out there!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 15, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
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On two occasions I have been advised by LEOs to have a gun.
One was when I was camped at a remote Panamint Valley cragging area with a very attractive partner. We were the only people there. It was late in the day when a BLM ranger came driving up the road. I think he was as surprised to see us as we were him. We exchanged greetings. He saw our tent and asked if we were spending the night. I said we were. We chatted for a minute and he turned to leave. After a few steps toward his jeep he turned around and asked me "Do you have a gun?" "You bet" I answered. "Good" he said. "Have a good night."
The other was a matter which I won't get into except to say that an LAPD officer said to me "I've seen situations like this before. If you don't already have a gun I'd suggest you consider getting one."
Regarding a jury convicting a person in a clear cut case of self defense, if I were prosecuted by a DA and was absolutely certain of my innocence I would not choose to go before a jury. I would choose to stand before a judge.
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frank wyman
Mountain climber
montana
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Aug 15, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
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Tioga.. A good gun for all around is a "judge" that way the wife can just point and click and not have to chamber a round as she always has some kind of lotion or goop on her hands.. that and it is a mini shotgun..
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
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at heart they honestly do not believe in individual rights and liberties What a crock. see Norton ^^^^
they believe in a VERY different America than the founders (federalists and anti-federalists alike) set up. The reasoning behind the second Amendment is certainly controversial. Please explain to me the STRICT construction of "A well regulated Militia…."
Since Libertarians and Conservatives are so fond of a strict construction.
1939, United States vs Miller
determining that Congress could regulate a sawed-off shotgun that had moved in interstate commerce under the National Firearms Act of 1934 because the evidence did not suggest that the shotgun "has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated milita . . . ." The Court then explained that the Framers included the Second Amendment to ensure the effectiveness of the military. Then 70 years later
2008, District of Columbia vs Heller:
In a 5-4 decision, the Court, meticulously detailing the history and tradition of the Second Amendment at the time of the Constitutional Convention, proclaimed that the Second Amendment established an individual right for U.S. citizens to possess firearms and struck down the D.C. handgun ban as violative of that right. The majority carved out Miller as an exception to the general rule that Americans may possess firearms, claiming that law-abiding citizens cannot use sawed-off shotguns for any law-abiding purchase. Similarly, the Court in its dicta found regulations of similar weaponry that cannot be used for law-abiding purchases as laws that would not implicate the Second Amendment. Further, the Court suggested that the United States Constitution would not disallow regulations prohibiting criminals and the mentally ill from firearm possession. However, several questions still remain unanswered, such as whether regulations less stringent than the D.C. statute implicate the Second Amendment Cornell University Law School
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment
individual values must be derived from and work to support the (nanny) state. more Tommy Rot.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 15, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
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I also believe that a certain part of the population should not be allowed to have guns people like convicted felons, people what are diagnosed with mental disorders and so, I believe that we as a civil society should do more to stop them from having guns
The issue of "believing in individual liberties and rights" is on a sliding scale. It certainly sounds like you are more libertarian in your principles than most of the gun control advocates on this thread. If so, then my statement certainly applies far less to you than to them.
However, the problem is in defining what a "civil society" even means. Any time you advocate a pre-crime measure, that measure by definition will be infringing on individual liberties in an attempt to provide a bit more "security in advance" to "society." That is necessarily going to intentionally and illegitimately infringe on individual liberties in an attempt to purchase a bit of security.
By "civil" you do not seem to mean merely one in which people basically and generally treat each other decently. You seem to imply by "civil" that SOME liberty is insignificant enough to give up in exchange for some measure of pre-crime security. So, it seems simply "obvious" that "convicted felons," etc. should not have guns.
But why shouldn't they?
First of all, there's a huge spectrum of "convicted felons," and most of them would be as responsible with a gun as any other citizen. So, do you mean just "violent felons?" Well, violent in what way? In what context?
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that people IN prison should have guns, but there is a principled reason for that distinction that involves the status of their rights, NOT because they are "convicted felons" as a group.
If our legal system puts somebody back out on the street, then their legal rights status should be restored. If, in individual cases, only some limited set of rights gets restored, then it must be a on a case-by-case basis in which the state can clearly demonstrate exactly what rights are not getting recognized and why.
A major problem with sweeping legislation of all sorts is that it pidgin-holes ALL people of a certain "type," and that will necessarily violate the legitimate rights of particular members of that class.
Most would say, "Oh well.... who cares?" But that blithe response just is communitarian rather than libertarian. The libertarian mindset says that EVERY individual (and their attendant set of rights) is vastly important, and society has NO business infringing on individual rights without compelling and principled reasons, applicable individually.
So, while I also share the intuition that "convicted felons" should not have guns, I also believe that the decision should be made on a case-by-case basis rather than by sweeping legislation that blithely lumps all "such" into the same class. I know that fine-grained approach is a BIG hassle, and it's much more "efficient" to just sweepingly legislate. But for a libertarian, "hassle" is a non-issue; do the job right or don't bother doing it!
The mental health issue is much tougher, as I have very little confidence in the "mental health" (in scare quotes for a reason) industry! Sure, there are clear-cut cases. But there are far more non-clear-cut cases. Again, I'm after case-by-case evaluation rather than sweeping legislation.
So, I would say that my point still holds even for you, although certainly to a much lesser degree than most of the other gun control advocates on this thread! And, seriously, thank you for your service to this country!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 15, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
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The reasoning behind the second Amendment is certainly controversial. Please explain to me the STRICT construction of "A well regulated Militia…."
I've done so at length up-thread. And the fact that you can quote some cases in which courts got it wrong is meaningless to the principles themselves.
Look, when the courts start getting it more and more consistently wrong on enough issues, coupled with a bare majority of "the people" deciding for the bare minority that we're going to become a communitarian rather than libertarian nation, then you HAVE at that point crossed the line to a state of majority faction. And that, my friend, is the basis of revolution.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 15, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
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After many years, I trust him explicitly not to be such an idiot again, and truely he is a different man.
Great story, Nutter! I'm happy for you and your son. Also glad to hear that his rights are recognized again.
Best to you!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 15, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
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Doesnt anyone find it odd that Congress DOESNT know what DHS is up to and has to ask them?
I find virtually everything about our "representatives'" knowledge of things, as well as the various entities (topping the list: DHS) that they supposedly oversee more than just "odd!" As you know, Ron, it's sick and wrong.
We live in a police state. It's a benevolent one, so most people don't see an issue. But it is a police state nonetheless.
The "Patriot Act?" Classic 1984 Doublespeak.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 15, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
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"And the fact that you can quote some cases in which courts ruled is meaningless to the fact that the principles themselves are wrong." You stand corrected.
No, I stand confused, baffled even. I don't know what you think you accomplished by so reworking my statement, but clearly you think you accomplished something. Uhh... okay... faint applause?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
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The "Patriot Act?" Classic 1984 Doublespeak. I don't think it's doublespeak. It says quite clearly the intent. It does however deliberately leave far too much discretion to the Executive Branch.
I opposed most of it at the time and have ever since. There's plenty of blood on the hands of Dems and Repubs for this one.
The FISA Act was passed in 1978, amended by the Patriot Act to broaden it's scope.
The FISA rules are a travesty of justice. Secret courts with secret rulings? Now THAT is 1984, just not in doublespeak, in plain English. The NUMBER of FISA requests and approvals is public and astonishing.
In 1980 (the first full year after its inception), it approved 322 warrants.[9] This number has steadily grown to 2,224 warrants in 2006.[10] In the period 1979–2006 a total of 22,990 applications for warrants were made to the Court of which 22,985 were approved Only 5 rejected? That's what I call a Kangaroo Court. More than 40 warrants a week in 2006? That's what I call a rubber stamp.
Of course there was the post 9/11 hysteria trumped up by the Bush admin. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Ashcroft. And The People were taken in by it:
Gallup poll response to the question "Based on what you have read or heard, do you think the Patriot Act goes too far, is about right, or does not go far enough in restricting people's civil liberties in order to fight terrorism?" showing that between 2003 and 2004 nearly a quarter of all Americans felt that the Act went too far, while most felt that it was either just right or did not go far enough.[50] In response, the Department of Justice established a website, www.lifeandliberty.gov, that defended the Act from such organizations as the ACLU (which itself had created a website that campaigned against the Patriot Act called Safe and Free).[51] At the same time, Attorney General Ashcroft toured 16 cities giving speeches to invite only crowds defending the Patriot Act and touting its importance.[52][53] In the speeches — which among other things made allusions to Bunker Hill, Antietam, the Argonne, Iwo Jima, Normandy and Abraham Lincoln The complete history of the proposed and enacted legislation before and after the Patriot Act is collectively a disgrace.
Bush's 2004 State Of The Onion address:
Key provisions of the Patriot Act are set to expire next year. The terrorist threat will not expire on that schedule. Our law enforcement needs this vital legislation to protect our citizens. You need to renew the Patriot Act.
you know, there might be such people as Libertarian Liberals. Or at least an overlapping interest in personal freedom and privacy.
To my addled Liberal mind, Ron Paul was usually the most cogent candidate in the Republitard Presidential debates. Generally regarding national security and law enforcement.
Romney?? MEH
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 15, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
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There's plenty of blood on the hands of Dems and Repubs for this one.
We are certainly on the same page about this. Neither party had a principled leg to stand on here.
Yet, it's the gift that keeps on giving, and neither party seems willing/able to unring that bell, despite the many abuses that have emerged from it, just as I (and it sounds like you) predicted when Bush was falling all over himself to get it passed.
It's good to find a bit of common ground, HighTraverse. Seriously.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
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whaddya know!! ;-)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 15, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
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The other afternoon I get a call from a good friend. He says he wants to give me a gun. He says it's a gun every self respecting gentleman should own. He goes on to say he doesn't want to do any official transfer etc. No paperwork.
I'm kind of confused and have my mind made up I wont accept the gun when he shows up with this...
http://www.bugasalt.com
What a hoot! This thing shoots a pinch of salt with sufficient force to nail flies, like a miniature shotgun.
Since city of LA has already made it illegal to shoot a bb gun I'm sure they'll be all over this one too.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
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Any time you advocate a pre-crime measure, that measure by definition will be infringing on individual liberties in an attempt to provide a bit more "security in advance" to "society." That is necessarily going to intentionally and illegitimately infringe on individual liberties in an attempt to purchase a bit of security.
Says the guy who supports Voter ID laws... To prevent a non violent crime that hasn't has a single proven occurrence in decades, that completely co-incidentally will disenfranchise more Democratic voters than Republicans.
If you think that the United States has been anything like the Founding Fathers intended for at least the last one hundred fifty years, you are even more delusional than I thought. The Founding Fathers themselves didn't want it to stay the same, or they wouldn't have written the means of change into the constitution. You didn't "sign up" for the Founding father's nation, guessing at your age, you signed up after at least 10 amendments after the death of the very last founding Father.
Perhaps you would prefer to return to slavery, non-applicability of most of the Bill of Rights to state laws, male only suffrage...
Luckily for the rest of us, you don't get to choose.
TE
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 16, 2013 - 12:28am PT
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Says the guy who supports Voter ID laws... To prevent a non violent crime that hasn't has a single proven occurrence in decades, that completely co-incidentally will disenfranchise more Democratic voters than Republicans.
I'm totally confused by this snippet. Let's see if we can parse it out....
a non violent crime that hasn't has a single proven occurrence in decades
First of all, voter fraud is indeed one of the most violent acts that can be committed against both a society and the legally-valid individuals that compose it. If you don't think that legislation is a form of controlled violence, then you really do know nothing about political theory.
But of even more interest is that if there are not any occurrences, then I'm really baffled how you can so confidently state: co-incidentally will disenfranchise more Democratic voters than Republicans.
If there are no "proven" occurrences, then HOW could you know what bloc of voters would be "disenfranchised?"
Also, even the choice of word, "disenfranchised," seems odd! If a person is legally entitled to vote, then HOW can he/she be "disenfranchised" by a law that simply ensures that he/she IS legally entitled to vote? If a person is NOT legally entitled ("franchised") to vote, then HOW can he/she then be disenfranchised?
Ohhh.... Could it BE that the recent successes of the Democratic Party have come about BECAUSE of a huge cadre of voters that would be "disenfranchised" if they DID actually have to demonstrate their legal right to vote? And are these the same people MOST wanting a handout at the taxpayers' expense? I don't know. I'm just confused because you seem to KNOW things that it seems impossible to know. Please explain.
Meanwhile, regarding a Voter ID law being an example of a "pre-crime" law, as you suggest, you now conflate innate, inalienable rights with derived rights.
You have an innate, inalienable ("human") right to life. So a law precluding murder prohibits an act someone might commit in violation of your innate, inalienable right. The same principle of an inalienable right holds regarding the right to self-defense. So, no valid law can preclude you ("alienate" you) from every needed means by which to defend yourself.
By contrast, you have only a derived right to vote. THIS right is not inalienable; it is a product OF the system in which you participate by voting (or wanting to). It is not a "human" right; it is a right strictly derived from a particular political arrangement, and, thus, it is ENTIRELY beholden to the rules of that particular game.
Furthermore, a law prohibiting you from voting (if you can't produce adequate ID) would violate NO rights of anybody that actually HAS the right. IF you DO have the legal right to vote, then the system simply says, "Prove it!" If you can, you vote, and no right of yours has been violated by the law. If you cannot, you do not vote, AND NO RIGHT OF YOURS HAS BEEN VIOLATED BY THE LAW.
Thus, I can well and consistently support a Voter ID law while simultaneously resisting all these pre-crime laws and inalienable-rights violations your side of this debate advocates.
If you think that the United States has been anything like the Founding Fathers intended for at least the last one hundred fifty years, you are even more delusional than I thought.
You're on the right track, but overstating by quite a bit. The real beginning of the end occurred under FDR, imho. So I believe that you've about doubled the actual time frame of the serious decline.
The Founding Fathers themselves didn't want it to stay the same, or they wouldn't have written the means of change into the constitution. You didn't "sign up" for the Founding father's nation, guessing at your age, you signed up after at least 10 amendments after the death of the very last founding Father.
Just because the document has a mechanism for change does not mean that the Founders thought Americans would pitch off a cliff in terms of the founding principles, such as the sacredness of individual liberty.
Perhaps you would prefer to return to slavery, non-applicability of most of the Bill of Rights to state laws, male only suffrage...
If you try to get even a bit serious, you might have more of an effect.
Luckily for the rest of us, you don't get to choose.
LOL, none of us, not even you, get to choose.
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perswig
climber
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Aug 16, 2013 - 08:31am PT
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Kris' rig reminds me of my grandfather loading 20ga shells with rock salt as a nonlethal varmint shoo-er.
Dale
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2013 - 08:45am PT
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First of all, voter fraud is indeed one of the most violent acts that can be committed against both a society and the legally-valid individuals that compose it. If you don't think that legislation is a form of controlled violence, then you really do know nothing about political theory.
Somehow, I think having my brains blown out would be just a might more violent than some Marine voting in the wrong precinct.
But that's just me.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Aug 16, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
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I'll bite.
First of all, voter fraud is indeed one of the most violent acts that can be committed against both a society and the legally-valid individuals that compose it.
No response needed, but it bears repeating just to show how completely bizarre your thinking is.
But of even more interest is that if there are not any occurrences, then I'm really baffled how you can so confidently state: co-incidentally will disenfranchise more Democratic voters than Republicans.
If there are no "proven" occurrences, then HOW could you know what bloc of voters would be "disenfranchised?"
I was thinking that jhedge was a bit harsh criticizing your reasoning skills, but perhaps he is right. In a court hearing here in PA, state lawyers were unable to present evidence (not proof, merely evidence) of a single case of in-person voter fraud in recent history. In-person voter fraud is already a crime (perjury), but to counteract this non-existent problem, Republicans passed a law that required government-issued ID to vote. Got that? No evidence that this crime exists AT ALL. Please offer any evidence to the contrary, and compare with evidence of the numbers of gun-related crimes.
Several independent studies show that those without valid Photo ID are more likely to be Democrats (city dwellers, younger voters), of course many Republicans will also be caught up by this, but as long as a higher proportion of Democrats don't get to vote, the goal is still achieved. I'm not even opposed to Voter ID laws theoretically, but when the details of such laws are so obviously biased against democrats, it becomes very clear who is damaging society and the legally-valid individuals that compose it.
Finally, back to the original point. The nation envisaged by the Founding Fathers failed in less that ninety years, ending in a civil war that reversed the relationship between state and federal governments, I merely pointed out some realities of that previous utopia that you repeatedly assert was morally superior.
TE
TE
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 16, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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Somehow, I think having my brains blown out would be just a might more violent than some Marine voting in the wrong precinct.
You definitely fixate on the most obvious and personalized notion of violence. However, the Marine is not the issue, and "violence" takes many forms. The difficulty is to elevate the thinking of people from an entirely personalized view of society to a principled one.
No response needed, but it bears repeating just to show how completely bizarre your thinking is.
I knew when I wrote it that you'd puke on it. But your visceral reaction makes the statement no less true.
In a court hearing here in PA, state lawyers were unable to present evidence (not proof, merely evidence) of a single case of in-person voter fraud in recent history.
There is so much wrong with this statement that I scarcely know where to begin. We could start with the sample size. We could start with what "in person" picks out (ie: not the real problem in the first place). We could start with what "recent" means. But why bother? It gets even worse in following sentences....
...but to counteract this non-existent problem, Republicans passed a law that required government-issued ID to vote. Got that? No evidence that this crime exists AT ALL.
As I stated earlier, if there is no crime, then nobody is "disenfranchised" by the law. This is the point you seem unable to "get." It might, by your lights, be a USELESS law. But if NOBODY is adversely affected by it, then you have nothing to carp about.
And "no evidence" doesn't move me a lot, given the sample size and geography you refer to. The great State of PA is not the sort of state I'm too worried about.
Several independent studies show that those without valid Photo ID are more likely to be Democrats (city dwellers, younger voters)...
I just LOVE lines like "several independent studies show." The phrase "studies show" in general is a HOOT. To critical thinkers, such a phrase is one of the biggest evidentiary red flags possible! LOL... worse than "damned lies."
And you'll get NO sympathy from me about the lack of photo ID. For those that cannot be BOTHERED to obtain essentially FREE state-issued ID, well, sorry, but you don't get to vote. Like, you care enough about society that you MUST vote, but you just can't be PART of society enough to get ID??? Yeah, right. Sorry, I'm not moved.
The nation envisaged by the Founding Fathers failed in less that ninety years, ending in a civil war that reversed the relationship between state and federal governments, I merely pointed out some realities of that previous utopia that you repeatedly assert was morally superior.
Wow! Just wow! Literally too much to say here than CAN be said in a venue like this. This paragraph is so chock full of bogus assumptions that I literally cannot even get started in dealing with it. I'll merely say this....
This particular part of our debate started when you accused me of being inconsistent regarding my favoring Voter ID legislation AND having a libertarian, no-pre-crime perspective. I think we can sum up at this point by saying that you have not only not even started to sustain that accusation, but I believe that any unbiased thinker is going to recognize that my perspective on this is at least consistent.
No point in dickering over the endless nuances of "utopia" or "moral superiority," because, as I've already said, we live in incommensurable paradigms. We use words that sound the same, but they have wildly different meanings.
Well, I'm done for at least the foreseeable future. I think that the principles underlying this whole issue are pretty clearly on the table at this point. Reasonable thinkers have enough from "both sides" in this thread to make up their own minds. And, over time, this nation will go the way of the majority view, as it always does.
If that ends up becoming full-on majority faction, then I do predict another major upheaval in this society, perhaps even another civil war. We'll see how it all plays out.
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