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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 12:11am PT
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"The espionage law is unjust if it is being used as a way to prosecute this man who did what was right."
Uhh, no. The law itself isn't unjust - you're saying that applying it to this situation is.
I could just as easily claim that bank robbery is right, if the stolen funds are used in a manner I agree with.
And I'd be just as wrong as you are.
Nah you'd just be a better writer.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 12:15am PT
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Trust? you kiddin me. I figured out Obama when he voted for telcom immunity as a Senator.
Basics are this jhedge.
Snowden was right to do what he did.
If our government wanted to do something good they would be looking for him to give him a medal.. not to arrest him.
That clear enough logic for you?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 24, 2013 - 12:26am PT
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If our government wanted to do something good they would be looking for him to give him a medal
No they wouldn't.
He ratted them out.
Crooks will kill you for that.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 12:36am PT
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Suicide is spending all this money pursuing Snowden instead of providing medical care for those who need it.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 12:42am PT
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jhedge wow
Logic
man does good
government should write laws that do not prosecute someone who does good
Government should not prosecute man who does good
Better yet?
SO far you have tried to skirt all over the place..
but this is the basics of my premise..
Snowden did good.
DO you dispute that?
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Plwase show me what rights were violated
I would switch sides on this in a heartbeat if any individual came forward who could show anything even faintly resembling slavery, suffragism, voter disenfranchisement etc as a result of NSA data mining
Till then, it's all just hysterical nonsense
Oh RLY?
Now how the f*#k are we supposed to figure out if this top secret program was used nefariously by the government without more SNOWDENS?
Talk about a lack of logic and an irrational conclusion...
LOGIC
You now ask for another Snowden to step up and break the law in order to give you evidence that the government used this datamining inappropriately?
How bout this.. The information exists and is accessible. The government is made of over 1 million human beings. Some of whom are not god people and some of those have accsess to that information.
Odds simpl suggest that this information is abusable available and there is motive to do wrong with it.
Odds are low that it has not been abused.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 12:52am PT
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Exactly Ron. As you might have noticed I supported you on your rants against those laws. Can't say we always agree or should always but you are right about those laws. I rarely get involved in political BS but here i am tonight.. lol
Anyone with a brain knew this was happening because the law clearly made it possible.
Anyone with a brain also knows that the datamining information has been used to harm people.
What can be done will be done. Especially when it's easy to do and lots of people have the opportunity.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 12:57am PT
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Incumbents don't matter much. Not when a new crop of bought and paid for candidates is always available.
Remember it is IMPOSSIBLE to become a federal elected representative without over a Million dollars in campaign donations. That's just the House. About a magnitude more for Senate and almost a couple more Magnitudes for President.
Unless we change that with a constitutional amendment government Of the People For the People and By the People continues to be DEAD.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 24, 2013 - 01:02am PT
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By the way
The flight 800 investigators just admited they lied about the plane crash.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 01:09am PT
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How would they know they had their rights infringed by use of a top secret information gathering system? You think that such information couldn't be used to do damage to someone in conjunction with other actions such that the person harmed could not recognize the involvement of the secret part of the harmdoing?
Are you saying that you find it unlikely that such a program has not and will not be used to harm people who do not deserve it?
Like I said you'd need another Snowden to prove it.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 01:23am PT
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Oh sure you'd know you were being blackmailed but you might easily be unaware of source of the information you thought you had hidden well. You chose blackmail but I'd have picked other examples.. regardless the concept is valid.
I know you are coming from a default position of trust and hope and knowing a lot of good people.
Try coming from a viewpoint of a person who has been conned by those he trusted, consider that there are people trained proffessionally to be conmen and to work as double agents and to lie in order to convict people.
As far as folks trained to lie in order to imprison human beings. This includes every current Police officer. Let alone the much more thorough training that federal law enforcement receives.
Consider the above facts well
Now use your imagination
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 01:34am PT
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You skipped the part where I answered your question with your own scenario.
Oh sure you'd know you were being blackmailed but you might easily be unaware of source of the information you thought you had hidden well.
I could have said Imagine the sun rising tomorrow because it is that simple to come up with a plausible scenario such as you asked for.. but that would have been rude.
I really am not trying to argue for arguments sake.
I get what you are saying I think. You seem beleive the datamining is being used in an appropriate manner in order to protect us as an additional tool used onle when other information leads us to need that saved datamine info.
I am simply suggesting that the info is easily abused and if so probably has been abused. Not only that but the type of abuse it makes possible is staggeringly bad.
I am furthermore suggesting that what Snowden did in making the people of the US aware of this system was a great service and as such I find him a hero not in any way a criminal.
I don't trust the government to always do what is right with it's power. I do at this time expect that it will do more right than wrong with it.
I am of the opinion that I have more to fear from my governments use of this information than I have to gain from it. Because what they do right with it has little actual pertinance to any risks I face. Whereas what are likely to do wrong with it while it also has very little risk to me is still much higher than the terrorst one to me. Matter of numbers basically. I have way more possible contact with government forces than from terrorists.
We probably disagree.
so be it.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 01:52am PT
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Ok I failed to communicate well. Perhaps I'm not even thinking well. I thought I'd done better. Actually I still think I made some pretty good points.
Someday perhaps I will master the power of thought and communication required to win an argument with a troll on the internet.
Sorry.. seriously.. I wish I'd done better.
And thanks for getting me motivated to think a bit more on this subject.
Gnight man.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 02:08am PT
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Dude nobody would attack Los Angeles with a Nuke. Pointless
It would hardly put a dent in it. Disrupt it sure but you could do that with plain old explosives on I5.
Wasted Nuke. Much better places to use one.
Other than nukes you are worrying way too much about Terrorists. And in LA you are definitely worrying too much about it.
Someday terrorists will get a nuke and blow up Washingto DC or NY. Inevitable. It will happen with or without this data mining. Well unless there is no point by then to attack America.
Could be China will be the worlds big target by then. Hope so. We could learn alot from Canada's ability to thrive by not being numero uno on the world stage.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 24, 2013 - 02:18am PT
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Now how the f*#k are we supposed to figure out if this top secret program was used nefariously by the government without more SNOWDENS?
You are not.
You are not supposed to be making judgements about top secret programs that are used to track terrorists, which if revealed, makes it easier for terrorists to operate.
You are supposed to vote, and elect people you trust to, under the penalty of law, evaluate what is being done, and whether, in their expert opinions, it is legal and valid.
They have done that evaluation---both parties have---and they have determined that no rights were being violated, and that protections are in place.
There is only one person who is alleged to have tapped information they should not have been looking at----and that is Snowden, who disclosed that he was searching through secret documentation that he was not cleared to read, which he knew, then copied and disclosed this information publically.
Sounds like spying to me.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 02:20am PT
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Except I don't trust our "elected" officials.
I'd love to actually even be able to have a democratic election in America.
But that isn't possible anymore.
Not when candidates are chosen for us to vote on. Chosen by way of massive campaign donations.
The US government has lost it's credibility unfortunately. But that is a fact of it's own doing.
Last time I used your way of thinking KenM we failed to vote out let alone impeach the idiots we had trusted to make such decisions. I have not Forgotten the lessons of Irag War II
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Jun 24, 2013 - 02:21am PT
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They have done that evaluation---both parties have---and they have determined that no rights were being violated, and that protections are in place.
Hahahaha
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 02:36am PT
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No not hardly. I love the idea of America. The America I pledged allegiance too. I dream of a nation as described by Our founders and by Lincoln. I hate what it is being perverted into.
As regards my opinion about the Nuking of DC or NY? I hate it but I believe it will occur. Same way my reaction to 9-11 was instantly.. "goddammit they finally did it."
First words out of my mouth after turning on the TV and seeing only one tower standing.
I am a believer in the idea that one person or a small group of highly motivated people are unstoppable.
I suggest removing the motivation as your best defense.
You need to stop listening to Limbaugh buddy. You might not get your filters so twisted that you could imagine let alone think or type that I hate America.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 02:40am PT
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"Not when candidates are chosen for us to vote on. Chosen by way of massive campaign donations."
Except both the current governor of CA, and the guy I worked for who ousted Mary Bono Mack, were outspent by huge amounts.
Your ignorance is sickening. Leave.
They were not outspent as much as the people who did not get donations were.
you jumped to the conclusion that I meant money perfectly guarantees who wins. It doesn't and that is not what I said or even meant to imply.
But it does perfectly guarantee who gets to play. And that is what matters. Not the D or the R. Doesn't matter who wins of the well financed ..all of them were picked as acceptable to the real constituency of the US government long before we the people get to vote.
It allows folks like you to think the system is not corrupt to it's bone.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 24, 2013 - 02:57am PT
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Corrupted by the need for campaign donations in order to play. No matter how much good they wish to do they are hampered by the need to get donations for themselves or for their party. Even if they wish to ignore it their less resilient colleagues will be constantly reminding them of it.
This creates lines they will not or even if willing simply cannot cross. Lines not first and foremost determined by what is best for The People.
It's a built in defacto foundational conflict of interest.
I think we both need some sleep. You have an early morning . Sorry if I kept you up.
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