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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 16, 2012 - 11:19am PT
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The same to you Raymond.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Oct 16, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
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RH is the definition of a troll.
-Constant repetition of the same idea over and over so people will feel compelled to point that out
-Ad hominem attacks to incite people to defend themselves and others
-Unwilling to post links and instead telling you to go find them yourself thus making you chase your tail for things that there's no reason to belive exist
-Obvious oversimplification of the issues to lure people into making the obvious rebuttal
-Refusal to concede any point without various proofs so that people will need to return to the thread with acceptable "evidence" then ignoring that evidence to return to earlier repeated points in order to inflame the person who just did the extra work to provide the evidence who now feels like their time was wasted.
Granted, the thread wouldn't likely stay on the front page without him and thus, we wouldn't have a constant forum for Jeremy, Crusher, Jensen, et al. to make Pelut's actions better known.
Normally would say don't feed the troll, but he serves a good purpose in this case, so troll on.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Oct 16, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
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And they claim the new route seems a "chalked up" new route when seen from the ground. Any intention of repeting it and then talk. Why? Just go there, look it through binocles and give your opinion... Prejudice?
Funny, this post from Rivet Hanger seems to be exactly why Jensen chose to continue the route instead of bailing: because if he hadn't and had just reported that from below the rest of the climb was a bunch of drilled bashie holes, he'd have been criticized by the route's defenders for not actually climbing it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 03:00am PT
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Thank you.
This thread has gotten so silly that it's now clear to me that, with this POS route, I was going to get criticized by somebody no matter what.
But the big picture here is now clear, regardless of RH's dodging and nit-picky criticisms of the SA:
1) Ridiculously-hyped "route"
2) Unnecessary, drilled-up, hyped "hook anchor" for (joke of a) rating
3) Totally manufactured, artificial-"difficulty" non-line
4) Huge, drilled bashie holes on average about every 24 inches
5) Virtually every placement drilled (with a heavy hand)
6) Non-forthcoming FA tactics
7) Unrepeatable with sustainable tactics
8) Basically a beat-senseless, utter botch-job
Now I'm the last guy to dicker over this or that placement, and there are NO "perfect" aid routes. The spectrum of "widely acceptable" tactics is huge, with MANY people hating this or that particular tactic.
But THIS thing was completely beyond the pale by ANY measure. THIS thing was not even a CLIMB. And that's what needed reporting.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 05:33am PT
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So let's troll!
-Constant repetition of the same idea over and over so people will feel compelled to point that out. I agree, always the same idea: the treatment to FA team and the Jensen's actions are not far away the same. Pelut is not American and that's why he does not deserves any respect although he has repeated Intifada, Weird Science, opened new hard routes in the Towers and around and has repeated hard aid routes in Europe that obviously none of you know and don't have any intenttion to know. A SA of an American man who was there alone it's enough to discredit...
-Ad hominem attacks to incite people to defend themselves and others. Not the half of ad hominem attacks, lies and jokes to FA team. Just llok older posts...
-Unwilling to post links and instead telling you to go find them yourself thus making you chase your tail for things that there's no reason to belive exist. They do exist, even Raymond has been able to find'em. If you find out a FB profile, you should be able to find the web page of this brand profile. It's really easy!
-Obvious oversimplification of the issues to lure people into making the obvious rebuttal. Rebuttal?
-Refusal to concede any point without various proofs so that people will need to return to the thread with acceptable "evidence" then ignoring that evidence to return to earlier repeated points in order to inflame the person who just did the extra work to provide the evidence who now feels like their time was wasted. Pelut was in the Towers last summer and contacted Jensen many times via web and absolute NO ANSWER although it's clear Jensen hat internet access. More evidence than that? Normal people would at least answer and have a meeting to talk about, unless your intentions don't include this possibility and just include bolts and rivets...
Granted, the thread wouldn't likely stay on the front page without him and thus, we wouldn't have a constant forum for Jeremy, Crusher, Jensen, et al. to make Pelut's actions better known. Wasn't exactly Pelut who created an ex-profeso web month ago to reveal the supposed fake of the route, and of course, he does not retrobolt a route when making a SA... He didn't even made that when repeating Intifada or opening Look out. Normal people usually first do climb and then explain...
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 05:48am PT
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Rivet hanger, what about the many drilled holes filled with bashies on Look out danger! ?
Is that good aid climbing style in Spain?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:09am PT
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Obviously that's not a good aid climbing style anywhere, Raymond.
But your reference is someone who decides to bolt the route and climbs alone...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:12am PT
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Prejudice?
Let me tell a little story....
When I was a graduate student and teaching assistant at UC Santa Barbara, I had about fifty under-grad students in one of my sections. I was responsible to lecture three times a week, proctor exams, and grade all homework and papers for my section. The main term paper was to be submitted in three drafts, giving two opportunities to rewrite (and, hopefully, improve).
The first draft from one student was so bad that I gave it an 'F' grade and asked the student to come to my office so that we could discuss strategies for radical improvement.
After about an hour of discussion with the student, I was becoming increasingly aware that the student utterly lacked the ability to "get" what I was trying to convey because the student suffered from a complete lack of basic writing skills, and I suggested that the student visit the campus writing center to get help with the basics of writing. That was the point at which the student played the race/gender/prejudice card:
"Well, there is the other explanation for why you failed my paper."
"Really? What's that 'other explanation?'"
"Well, I am a black woman, and you are a white man...."
At that point I told her: "We're done here. I will be immediately taking your paper and your 'suggestion' to the course professor as well as to the academic standards committee, and I will be filing a complete report about this matter. With your one sentence you are gunning at my entire career. So let me explain this for your benefit. Your race, ethnic heritage, gender, or any other such thing is completely irrelevant to the grade I gave you. I don't care if you are a purple-with-pink-polka-dotted transgender person; this draft was complete crap, and I graded it as crap and encouraged you to come get help making it into something other than crap. You have refused help and turned this into something else. Now this crap will see a 'wider audience.'"
She started crying and apologizing, but the damage had already been done. We must report ALL such exchanges!
I did what I had said. The result for her was that she was failed from the entire course, and her play of the race/gender card was made a part of her permanent academic file. Had she taken my help and suggestions instead, she would have almost undoubtedly passed the course and just moved on.
RH (and any other lurking FA supporters): The FA of Weak Sauce was an EPIC botch, and not one single point you've tried to make changes that fact.
Even IF it were true (and it's not) that I didn't respond to Pelut's communications, that is irrelevant. The FA was still an epic botch.
Even IF it were true (and it's not) that I went up there TO discredit Pelut, that is irrelevant. He still did what he did on the FA (and I've proved it), and the FA was an EPIC botch.
Even IF it were true (and it's not) that I totally botched the SA, that changes nothing about the facts of the FA, and the FA was an EPIC botch.
Even IF it were true (and it's not) that we pissy Americans are ALL totally prejudiced toward non-American climbers, THAT changes nothing about the tactics of the FA, which was an EPIC botch.
Just as with my former student, there is an OBJECTIVE fact of the matter regarding the FA of Weak Sauce, and that FACT is that the FA was an EPIC botch, a complete and utter FAIL. Not one of your "arguments" or accusations changes anything about that fact. My student wrote a crap paper and got graded accordingly. Pelut put up a CRAP route and got graded accordingly.
Now, imagine that my former student had gone all over campus (about 35,000 other students) spraying that her paper was the FINEST paper EVER written, that it was far, far, FAR (!!!!) better than ANY other paper ever written. EVER! Think about how FAR apart such claims would have been from reality! Imagining that scenario will give you SOME sense of the VAST disconnect between the claims and the reality regarding the FA of Weak Sauce. And THAT's what arouses MY ire, not some prejudice!
Weak Sauce not only was NOT the hardest, most impressive aid climb EVER done (as was claimed), but it was at the absolute opposite end of the spectrum. It was arguably the biggest and most pitiful BOTCH JOB ever done.
Even with the unenviable tactics Beyer employed on the FA of Intifada, he at least had a LINE there, and a pretty cool one at that. He used the FEATURES of the rock! Pelut should have learned something from it. By contrast, Weak Sauce has no LINE, and its FA was not even a CLIMB. It is just virtually-random wanderings all over a mostly blank wall, drilling the whole way. Even what features there are were drilled!
So, give up the pathetic "race card" in this discussion. It makes you look as petulant and foolish as was my former student. And it changes nothing about the EPIC FAIL that was the FA.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:16am PT
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Since my point of view Richard, for you the route was yet a botch months before you even drilled the first bolt 2 m above the ground, that's the problem...
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:16am PT
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My reference?
So you agree that the route was put up in bad style but you still defend the route?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:22am PT
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But your reference is someone ho decides to bolt the route and climbs alone...
Be crystal clear, RH. No more vague "suggestions" on this point!
ARE you saying that I am lying about the FA? If so, be specific! EXACTLY how am I lying?
And what do the tactics of the SA have ANYTHING to do with the tactics of the FA? I reported on the tactics of the FA.
Explain, and be CLEAR about it. To help you with that, here are specific questions you can answer:
1) Does Pelut deny drilling his way up the route, with the drill used for virtually every placement?
2) Does Pelut deny drilling big holes in blank rock and filling them with massive bashies that he (in most cases) jerked out, leaving blown-out, useless holes that would need re-drilling to be useful?
3) Does Pelut deny drilling a hole (on average) every 24 inches up the route?
4) Does Pelut deny trenching heads for virtually every placement where there was anything resembling a "seam?"
5) Does Pelut deny drilling massive holes and filling them with wooden wedges that he removed?
6) Does Pelut deny claiming that the route was A6+?
7) Does Pelut deny that he was utterly ignorant of the fact that Intifada had been significantly down-rated something like 18 YEARS prior to his ascent of it?
I could go on and on, but that's a good start. Answer those questions and explain EXACTLY what you are trying to float about my integrity and honesty.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:25am PT
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the route was yet a botch months before you even drilled the first bolt 2 m above the ground
EXACTLY right!
The route was what it was two years before I ever got there. The FACTS of the FA were established before I ever got there and REGARDLESS of any pre-conceived notions I had about it. There are just OBJECTIVE facts, and my (fabled) pre-conceptions changed nothing about those facts.
It's not like BECAUSE I had these (fabled) pre-conceptions that the FA was a botch. It was a botch because of what PELUT DID. PELUT made it a botch, not me.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:25am PT
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Don't ask me, ask FA team. But all these questions could have been explained talking with Pelut and Ster last summer, but you DID NOT EVEN ANSWER their request! They were in Moab for more than a month!
Why were you hiding? You need answers now, not in June?
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:29am PT
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Don't ask me, ask FA tema. But all these questions could have been cleared talking with Pelut and Ster last summer, but you DID NOT EVEN ANSWER their request! They were in Moab for more than a month!
Why were you hiding? You need answers now, not in June?
This only make you look stupid. Do you really believe that there is no chance that Richard didn't check for new comments on his homepage during that time?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:48am PT
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And one final post for now....
RH, you keep referring to the respect we should have for Pelut because of his (many?) other (supposedly) awesome ascents.
Were those ascents as "awesome" as his ascent of Weak Sauce?
I can't speak to those other ascents. I can only speak to THIS one, so I limit my comments to what I actually observed.
Here's what I observe about Pelut's climbing, as DEMONSTRATED by Weak Sauce:
1) The guy can't even man-up enough to get a placement below his waist before he's groping for another one, even on less than vertical rock.
2) The guy is HEAVY-handed with ALL he does to the rock. Maybe Crusher thinks it's okay what we saw in the video, with Pelut BEATING kilograms of rock loose so that he could BURY that pecker almost to the point of invisibility; but MOST aid climbers are going to call what we saw in that video clip EXCESSIVE and heavy-handed! I saw that and much more on Weak Sauce.
3) The guy has NO ability to route-find. The "route" that is Weak Sauce made virtually no sense. He just wandered at random from useless "feature" to useless feature, drilling and trenching the whole way.
4) The guy has no aesthetic sense about using the FEATURES of the rock and conforming himself to what the rock presents.
5) The guy got into "drilling mode" and, consequently didn't even employ MANY natural features that WERE there to be had (if he had used a light touch).
Again, I could go on and on. But, like my former student, Pelut evidenced that he didn't even know the BASICS of good aid climbing. But then he sprayed to the whole world that he was THE MASTER! So much the master, in fact, that NO other route in history had even come close.
So, I'm not talking about Pelut's other ascents. I don't presently respect him as a climber because of what I CAN observe and HAVE observed first-hand. And I don't presently respect either him or YOU, because you have so lamely tried to dodge the FACTS of the FA by shifting attention to the (necessary) tactics of the SA.
You don't like the first bolt? It's right next to the first drilled bashie Pelut placed (you can see him gripping his bashie as he points to my bolt). So who gives a crap? It's irrelevant, as is EVERY bolt/rivet I drilled on the SA. NONE of them matter, because they were ALL just necessary drilling to GET UP the PILE that was left behind by the FA. There was NO "good style" to be HAD on that "route!" And I did the SA in FAR, FAR better style than the FA. LOL
Pelut left a "route" that could ONLY be climbed on the SA with a LOT of retro-bolting, and I do not apologize for doing what needed to be done to get that job done. It's just a sad, sad state of affairs. There's NOTHING to be proud of in the SA, and if somebody wants to go chop the POS, more power to them! But the SA does document what was done on the FA, and the facts of the FA cannot be changed.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 07:58am PT
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Stupid me... I can't resist now that I'm back into this increasingly stupid thread....
They were in Moab for more than a month!
Why is the failure to communicate ALL on me in your mind? I was not "hiding." I was there on the route in plain sight!
IF Pelut was in Moab during my SA, then WHY didn't he come to the route even ONCE during that whole month?
Until I had worked my way almost halfway up, I was coming down every weekend (three times) to restock on water (hot, hot, HOT!) I literally could not CARRY enough water up there. So I was in Moab repeatedly, AND Pelut knew from my blog that I was on the route. He obviously knew where the route was!
If Pelut was SO interested in meeting with me, then WHY didn't HE arrange to meet with me? And even without e-contact with me, All he had to do was go the the PARKING LOT now and then, or hike up to the route ONCE, and he would have connected up with me.
Don't try to float this BS! And, again, it's totally, completely irrelevant. The FACTS of the FA are what they are, regardless of whether I met with Pelut or not.
What do you think... that I would have met the man and changed my report because I would have LIKED him, or something like that? I saw what I saw. I documented what I saw. And nothing about what I saw was going to be changed by meeting with Pelut.
Another lame, pathetic red herring on your part. Give it up. It doesn't float (except perhaps belly-up like the dead fish that it is).
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 11:01am PT
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Again a lack of rigorousness before giving an opinion, something that could be solved just reading previous posts!
Look at Jensen's web page (http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger); and you'll find out that Pelut contacted him during June, and specially at the beginning of August to have a meeting with him because he was in the Towers. But, oh surprise, no answer given (well, yes, given at mid september after you had written it in this thred). A good explanation could be that Richy didn't have internet access? No, my friends, mysteriously Jensen posted on this thred on August 7th but didn't even answer Pelut... Cooperation attitude?
By the way, Jeremy took this picture from Pelut's video that everybody can see on youtube...
But, oh surprise, Jensen also has his own version of the hook anchor, a little bit different. In addition of bolts and rivets, he also is weak sauce because drills the holes deeper to place angles!
And by the way, Richy, you don't really see a line there? Curious because the photo is yours and 1rt pitch seems to me a clear small crack...
So, why should I/we belive Jensen's report? He was out there alone...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 17, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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Be very careful calling me a liar, RH. If you want to back that up, then get over here to the States, meet with ME, and say it to my face. I've paid my dues for decades in the climbing community to demonstrate that I tell the truth. Pretty easy for a simpering weasel like you to pop off from across the sea. Say it to my face, and we'll see who's still standing, and I mean that. I don't lie. You've crossed the line with your hopeless "defense" of the indefensible.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Oct 17, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Wow, Jensen, stay calmed!
I don't see I've called you liar. These pics are taken from youtube and the web page you created, everybody can check it out, so no explanation? Pelut has had to bear much more s%it than this...
By the way, I see that when it's necessary you are synthetic. That's good!
And it's not with me that you should have a meeting, ironic and didactic that didn't even answer Pelut's meeting requests.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 17, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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One problem with you rivet hanger is that you seem to see evidence where there really is no evidence.
Having access to internet is not the same thing as reading everything posting on the internet, not even the same thing as looking if there are any new comments on his own webpage.
Youtube videos showing cables sticking out of holes do not prove that the depth of the holes is not enough to almost fit a whole angle.
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