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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 18, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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Sorry to still be the one seemingly curious soul left here.
Hey Eric. I didn't expect you to have a response. I also posted the same question on the BD QC Lab web site at the same time. Hopefully they will have a respoinse. Seems like a reasonable question to ask in a much more public forum to me.
Eric I think you might be a bit confused. I am not asking about my own crampons here. Although I do own a couple of pair of stainless horizontals. I am asking on behalf of the million or so page readers I have at Cold Thistle from an international audience located in virtually every alpine country in the world. It is a question one of those readers posed to me.
One in a 1000 failure rate? Is that really the odds or is it more yet?
Dane Burns @ Cold Thistle
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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I'm also curious RDB.
The video of the stress test machines were in the lab not the commercial freezer.
The machines do not look potable? (I'm asking.)
They say they have a cold room. (commercial freezer)
Did they move those stress test machines into that commercial freezer room to test the stainless steel under freezing temps?
There's no real evidence of that except vague words ("performing side-by-side testing at room temperatures and in our commercial freezer").
So those machines were actually placed into that cold room and made operational for stress testing the front points in the same manner as in the video?
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 18, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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Is it just me or is it really hard to get a simple and straight forward answer in any public forum?
I posed this question on the BD website and added the bold insert here on the "recall":
Dane Burns @ Cold Thistle
17 Apr 2012, 11:52PM
In the Fall of '10 or early winter of '11 BD obviously made an inline change and added 30% or more material to the front point area on the frame of the Sabers where they have been breaking.
We have been calling them Gen I and Gen II for clarity's sake.
As late as last Fall (2011) you could still buy Gen I Sabers at retailers online and in person.
Was there ever a recall internally of the Gen I crampons and replacement with Gen IIs. (the answer is yes in at least one retailer's case) If you own Gen Is will BD replace them with Gen IIs prior to a failure?
Thanks for the reply.
The BD answer is here:
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/all/qc-lab-gear-doesnt-last-forever--crampons
and reprinted here:
18 Apr 2012, 4:04PM
@Dane Burns As previously stated in our QC Lab post on the Black Diamond Journal and in Peter Metcalf's post on Supertopo.com, our designers and engineers always look for opportunities to improve designs through in-line adjustments. These iterative design tweaks are part of any BD product, be it a carabiner, crampon, ski boot, headlamp or trekking pole. And, as stated previously as well, we stand behind all of our products, including all stainless steel crampons.
Looks to me like they are standing behind the crampons. Swapping Gen Is for Gen IIs should be easy as BD really does stand behind the product.
Here is how you tell the difference:
"Interesting observation from a picture. 2nd gen Saber on the left and 1st generation Saber on the right. Serac's look to have added the same amount of material to the forward rails. Difference across the flat, in the same area as the breaks above, has gone from .53" to .70". Or if my numbers are correct, a 38% increase in material to the rails. The center bar on the front points went from .50" to .62" or 24%."
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 18, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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I seem to have quite a bit of trouble getting an answer from coz on specifics about the harness questions he has raised :-)
That is quite a difference in the crampon picture and measurements. BD did not give an answer to your replacement question. I wonder what they would do if you sent them in to BD with a letter stating your concerns about breakage and how many days a year and vertical pitches you use them on....
Erik
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Apr 18, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
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Anyone else think this is some new-age performance art?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
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My wife was doing inventory in the Rescue office today and up came a Black Diamond harness.
Me and Jesse were looking at it trying to figure out what coz is talking about.
Lo and behold I now understand .......
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
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Werner,
Please post a picture
Erik
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
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I think I'm gonna ask the boss if I can throw the dummy off the cliff with this harness.
We have lots of dummies (manikins) which weigh about 200 lbs.
Labrat there's no photo to be seen.
I'm not sure yet if it's possible to rip the the stitching out as coz claims.
But maybe the dummy will tell us?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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How about some details? What type of harness(es)? All harnesses? Can you write up a scenario? Draw a picture? Something?
Surprised you don't have a camera and cannot post a picture. :-(
Erik
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
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Sorry to still be the one seemingly curious soul left here.
You are not the only one Dane. While BD has answered SOME of the questions I posted, a number are still unanswered.I also think there are large number of lurkers here who don't want to get involved with the additional drama surrounding this thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
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Relax dude.
It's not the end of the world yet.
There's no way to take a picture without cutting some of the harness padding away.
I don't have permission to free lance with govt. equipment.
I have to get permission first ....
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SofCookay
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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I have a couple of BD harnesses and, after examining them, I get what Coz is saying and he is correct. I'll see if I can post some pics to clarify.
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WhiskeyToast
Social climber
Hawaii
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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I think Coz is referring to the Bod harness. Maria (m.) several pages back states:
"BD has sold over a million Bod
Harnesses since they were introduced. There has never been a single accident or fatality attributed to this harness' failure.
Greg
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
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Who needs a damn harness, anyway....or belay device?
And to hell with those stupid trampolines, whether they are generation I or Generation II, stainless or Cromoly....
Just get up on the rock and climb!
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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Yeah it's true.
You don't need sh!t.
One only needs motivation.
Too many gear freaks for me.
I hate looking at gear and talking about it.
Throw it all in the dumpster ......
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 19, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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Kinda a step back but....I heard much it can be done with just an axe and a decent pair of boots.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 20, 2012 - 01:46am PT
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Werner,
It's been 24 hours. Make the government wheels turn. Tick tick. This is about safety and dumb Americans.........
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 20, 2012 - 01:48am PT
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Excuse me "stupid Americans" (my apologies to Canada!)
Erik
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 20, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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bump
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zxcvbnm
climber
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Apr 20, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
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I have a BD momentum harness and i noticed the sketchy overlay design within the first few times of looking at the harness.
As far as i can tell, if the couple of bartacks left of the tie in loop blow out then your tie in loop and belay loop will be completely disconnected from the waistbelt. On daisy chains these pockets rip out easily but taking a normal lead fall loads the tie in loop like that and they don't fail(aka the bartacks are strong enough). I can't see how the loading you describe is any different from a standard lead fall where the rope pulls on the tie in pockets. If you are tied into the anchor with your rope then you will have the same loading via the knot at your harness as any other fall that is caught by the rope. Right?
I'm guess i'm missing something but it would be nice to have a dumbed down explanation.
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